Ogadai survives a bit more

[Hermanubis]

Intermarriage (Or Rape, I suppose) between Mongol Warriors and European Women, I guess...

Yeah, but were there even enough Mongols for that to make a difference? (The Mongol Armies would be pretty small compared to the whole of the European Population

 

[Galbatorix]

?what about moving population from other areas? ?can they repopulate europe with persian and centroasian prisoners? ?chinese ones?

 

[Hermanubis]

?what about moving population from other areas? ?can they repopulate europe with persian and centroasian prisoners? ?chinese ones?

I don’t remember the Mongols ever going in for vast population movements like that…

 

[MerryPrankster]

I don’t remember the Mongols ever going in for vast population movements like that…

That's been done to some extent already--thousands of Genoese have been sent into the East. Perhaps there's a "little Italy" on the Caspian somewhere in the future of TTL? Or perhaps a Persian quarter in Paris or Rome?

 

[Hierophant]

The amount of people in western and central europe compared to eastern europe at the time is huge. Any Mongols or other Aisans that settled in that area of europe that mixed with the locals would be quickly assimilated, leaving little proof they had been there.

After the Great Plague several thousands of slaves from Africa were imported into places like Italy to replace lost workers. How much did that influence the complexion of Italians?

 

[Condottiero]

So no ethnic trace then... it's a pity. Maybe we can keep some cultural aspects and the titles: the Khan of the Franks/of the Rum/....

I have modified the map and I am working on the next chapter of the TL:

 

[Condottiero]

Count Cesare d'Otranto could not believe that after arriving to Malaga he had to cross the Strait to met the King of Hispania. But apparently Miguel I was preparing his own crusade against the Almoravids. When Rome and the Holy Roman Empire were again threatened by the Nestorians heretics of the Khan of the Rum, he was there preparing an army to take lands from the Muslims!

He looked again at his escorts. The Teutonic knights that had came with him contrasted with the hispanic lancers attired in a Moorish style. Their light helmets were crowned by turbans and only the Calatrava cross in their breastplates and their swords revealed that they were christians.

Finally they reached the camp of the hispanic tent. By his tent, guarded by some black soldiers with huge scimitars, flew the arms of Hispania, the flags of the orders of Calatrava and Santiago and some other flags with arabic characters in them. Inside Miguel I read a book in arab while some moorish musicians played a delicate tune.

- Welcome my friend! Do you bring news from my brother Ulrico?

He wondered how could this demi-arab could dare to call brother to the Roman Emperor. But the noises of the campsite and the presence of a huge army around him gave him the answer: he was by the most powerful king of Christendom. The only one who could defy the Khans of Europe and the Sultans of Africa.

 

[Superdude]

Thank god for Spain.

 

[MerryPrankster]

So, the Khans of Rum are Nestorians? Have their beliefs filtered down into the Orthodox population or is Nestorianism simply confined to the ruling class?

Hmm...will the populace revolt if "Mother of Christ" replaces "Mother of God" as the official title of the Virgin Mary? That might be the only major change the Nestorian rulers impose, religiously at least?

If there is an analogue to Protestantism in TTL, might the Protestants find allies in Rum?

 

[Hermanubis]

So no ethnic trace then... it's a pity. Maybe we can keep some cultural aspects and the titles: the Khan of the Franks/of the Rum/....

I have modified the map and I am working on the next chapter of the TL:

I donno, the Mongols are still pretty outnumbered here; I think the best you could go for would be a Mongol Dynasty of Germany (The Khan Converts to Catholicism and declares himself King or Emperor)

 

[Condottiero]

Would the Ottomans have better luck in being the dominant ethnic group in Central Europe?

 

[Galbatorix]

i suppse we will have an elite of mongols of nestorian religion ruling over a mass of catholic/ortodox germanic/balkanic peasants. ?would it possible that the mongol ethnic characteristics would be seen as blue-blodd, as a sign of nobility abnd that way they survive longer? you know peasants are the tall blonde guys and the nobles are the short, dark haired with small eyes.

 

[Aussey]

Here's My FIrst Draft of a Flag for the Hispanic Kingdoms:

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The Mongols probably could not get rid of the Turks completely, but they can definitely contain them. They might also see the horse-archer Turks as more difficult to control than the settled Byzantines, and focus on wiping them out.

The majority of Mongol troops WERE actually Turks. I don't understand this "getting rid of the Turks" discussion. Any lasting Mongol states will inevitably be dominated by them.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Nope. It ended in early 1300s. The true breakthrough was made in las Navas the Tolosa. The castillians took Cordoba, then the Portuguese reached the Algarve and the last ones to fall were the Niebla Taifa Kingdom (on the portuguese side). Granada survived a couple of centuries because it was more profitable for the castillians to have their gold as taxes than destroying everything.

But the Byzantine Empire was only around as Nicaea - the Latins were in control in Constantinople, which greatly facilitates Mongol conquest, which I think would be dubious if the city were held by the Byzantines.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I belive they would be. For starters: tactics. The European systems of battle lines and formations was totally inadequate for dealing with Mongol small unit - formation. This would be made worse by European knight being great fighters as individuals, but not really professional troops and totally inadequate when it comes to fighting as a coordinated army. The feigned retreat, move around them, etc. tactics of the Mongols where eventually medieval Blitzkrieg.
IMHO it would have been a professional army with Blitzkrieg tactics against brave, but unprofessional knights with untrained cannonfodder for support and incompetent leadership.

Europeans aren't going to be facing the Mongols in field battles - they'll do the same thing that they did against the Ottomans: avoid battle at all costs and force the Mongols to engage in costly and lengthy sieges. While the Mongols were certainly capable of reducing fortified positions, they do not have the capability to sustain long sieges in the climate and terrain of Western Europe. The Ottomans were unable to do it, and they were far more capable in this category than were the Mongols.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

4. The muslim armies the Mongols fought were not exactly pushovers but still the mongols won there (not much fodder for horses in the desert either).

That's not true. The Mamelukes actually whacked the Mongols, and they declined to attempt to supply themselves across deserts, hence the survival of Egypt.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

So would I be right in assuming that they could not take Constantinople?

They probably could in this TL because they happen along during the Latin occupation of the city - the opportunities for taking the city through treachery are legion.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

1. Mongol morale will soon erode as they are unable to sustain their horses and are bogged down in profitless and difficult sieges. Remember that to a Mongol the richest provinces of France are poor wastelands. To them, the Hungarian plain was worth all of Western Europe combined.

You raise some good points. I still think they'd pulled it of though.
1. Morale beats numbers. Apart from their knights too many parts of European armies had no reason to risk getting killed for "their betters".

2. When i said that knights are unprofessional i did not mean to imply that they are bad fighters or not very even suicidically brave. But they were not really trained to fight as a team or as part of an army not to mention their basically non-existing ability to cooperate with the grunts on foot. Saladin used that to great effect.

3. I doubt they'd have to take every last fortress or city. Chop off enough heads of those who resist and others will surrender without a fight. And Mongols despite their horsebowmen image were very good at siege warfare.

4. The muslim armies the Mongols fought were not exactly pushovers but still the mongols won there (not much fodder for horses in the desert either).

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

That might have to be factored in. The plague is endemic in central Asia, and in OTL reached Europe when contaminated corpses were catapulted into Constantinople IIRC, in the first recorded instance of bacteriological warfare. Should the Mongols bring the plague (to which they had developed a relative resistance) into Europe in the mid-13th century, the effects would be as devastating as in OTL, what with all the refugees as potential vectors.

Plague came on ships. I think you are referring to a movie or something. It will come when it did. Plague was usually stimulated by environmental factors, usually famine or abundant rains in Africa.