Ogadai survives a bit more

[Molobo]

One longterm effect would be that just like in Russia, the rule of Mongols would leave absolutists rule tradition combined with cruealty and disregard for invidual life.The occupation will collapse probably, but instead of many scattered regional states I guess larger unified countries of Germany and Poland would emerge.The same process would apear probably in Spain under the rule of Pope due to the need of organised resistence against Mongol invasion.
It's true that trade routes to China would be more known, but they could easly be dominated by eastern and central european countries of Poland and Germany.
Countries like Spain or England-Franco Kingdom/which could become unified as well at least for some time, perhaps later plunging into civil war/ could seek still sea routes.
Due to to existence of unified organised countries we could even see an earlier discovery of America.

Oh and btw-I live in Legnica

 

[pa_dutch]

Scandinavian nations (would they take more seriously their westernmost possesions: Iceland, Vinland and Terranova?).

You could perhaps have many Scandinavians, most likely very fearful of what's become to the rest of Europe, flee to Iceland and Greenland. I don't think there was much economic importance to Greenland, which is a major reason why it was neglected, but as a place of refuge it might come in handy.

The settlements of Greenland died out because there was a "Little Ice Age" that began in the 1400s, and the Norse were ill-equipped to deal with the climatic shift. Studies show that malnutrition was a major cause of death. In order to have them survive, they'd have to adopt many of the customs of the neighboring Inuit who were friendly with them and also better suited for the environment. You might have a hybrid Norse-Inuit culture arise.

Vinland, wherever it was, was a much more habitable place, with many resourses that would facilitate settlement. The problem, however, was that the small Norse population was isolated in a sea of distrustful Native Americans. You'd have to have a much larger, more prepared population migrate to Vinland in much more organized fashion, probably financed by whichever monarchy controlled them at that point, and better relations with the natives.

 

[Condottiero]

I'll work on the next chapter. Some ideas:
The Mongol tide retreats.
Some Mongol warlords with the help of local population create new states (Kanate of the Franks?).
More authoritarian and of Nestorian religion.
Cities collapse and trade interrupts.
Spain, anglo-Normans and Skandinavians are the representatives of European civilization.
Hispania will be a mixed culture: mainly christian but with huge islamic population due to accelerated Reconquista and jewish population (fleeing from Central Europe). The sucessors of Alfonso limit the power of the Pope in Compostela.
Anglo-Normady will adopt mongolic war techniques and tactics. They will lead the European-Reconquista. More intolerant and aggresive. The Pope could eventually move to London.
Scandinavians could give more weight to their western colonies, but I see them more as traders with Hispania and the Mediterranean.
Holy Roman Empire would be Mediterranean oriented, probably re-occupying Italy and Tunis.

 

[Hendryk]

Earlier Plague?

That might have to be factored in. The plague is endemic in central Asia, and in OTL reached Europe when contaminated corpses were catapulted into Constantinople IIRC, in the first recorded instance of bacteriological warfare. Should the Mongols bring the plague (to which they had developed a relative resistance) into Europe in the mid-13th century, the effects would be as devastating as in OTL, what with all the refugees as potential vectors.

 

[Condottiero]

Maybe the mongols could have used the black death against well fortified towns.

 

[Galbatorix]

the illness will swap spania and anglo-normandy. they will be more weaken but it will afect also the mongols. they will probably retreat to hungary.

please continue

 

[Condottiero]

Revised Part I of TL

January 1241 Subotai concentrates his army near Halicz and prepares to invade Europe.
April, 9 1241. The Mongols defeat an allied force of Germans, Poles, Templars and Teutonic Knights in Liegnitz.
April, 10 1241. The Hungarians are massacred by the Sajo river.
Summer 1241. Mongol army recovers from the conquest in Hungarian plains.
Fall 1241. Luois IX of France and Frederick II of Germany prepare armies to face the Mongols.
February 1242. POD: Ogadai recovers from an unexpected illness. He sends his last orders to Subotai to conquer Europe.
April 1242. The Mongols siege and take Viena.
May 1242. Fredericks army is destroyed by Munich. The Emperor barely escapes to Milan.
Summer 1242. The mongols take, sack and burn Hanover, Milan and Venice.
Fall 1242. The Emperor abandons Genoa as Mongol forces surround the city. Genoese pray for mercy but the city is not spared and thousands of citizens are enslaved and sent to the east.
February 1243. The Mongols cross the Rhine and defeat Louis IX army near Antwerp. The french king dies in battle. Antwerp, Bruges, Paris and Rheims are destroyed and the population scattered or enslaved.
Easter 1243. Rome is sacked and the Pope Gregory IX flees to Aragon where another army is being massed. Aragonese, Castillians, Navarrese and Portuguese will join under Alfonso X of Castille and his father-in-law Jaime I of Aragon to fight off the invaders.
Summer 1243. The Mongols stop and rest in northern Italy. While an english army under Henry III prepares in Aquitanie. The Pope arrives to Barcelone with the relics of St. Peter and St. Paul. The papacy will move to Compostela.
Fall 1243. Three battles are fought almost simultaneously while Naples is sacked and burned to the ground. The mongols are surprised in Pyrennaic passes by the hispanic armies, in Roncesvalles the main mongol army is surprised and defeated by a combined portuguese, castillian and navarrese army led by the Castillian and Navarrese Kings. A flanking force is defeated near Gerona, while another one is stopped by the walls of Bordeaux. But two of the Hispanic kings are dead, Portugal and Navarre, the Aragonese heir is dead, only Alfonso X survives and his wife Violante of Aragon is now the heiress of Jaime's crown.
Winter 1243. Subotai decides to concentrate on the East and attacks Constantinople, but Byzantine forces, helped by Seljuc Turks manage to resist. Subotai retreats to the Hungarian plains.
Spring 1244. The Mongols enter again in France destroying what is left there but they are defeated again.
Summer 1244. Ogadai dies by the ruins of Rheims.
Christmas 1244. The Mongols have been stopped although most of Europe is devastated. The towns have been destroyed by the mongols whose herds now roam by the fields and the burned walls. Thousands flee to the lands of the Kings of England, the Hispanic Kingdoms and the few territories Frederick II can claim as his from his new court in Palermo.
1245 The Black Death spreads over Europe, Asia and Northern Africa killing millions.

 

[Condottiero]

Part II

1250 Decomposition of the Mongol Empire Kublai Khan rules the Eastern part of the Empire.
1251 Growing tensions between the Pope and king Alfonso X because of his tolerance to the islamic and jewish minorities.
1254 Gregory IX dies. The new Pope Innocent IV decides to return to Italy in order to achieve the recovery of Rome.
1255 The Pope returns to Italy to Messina and calls for a crusade over the Mongolic Heathens.
1256 Uguda Khan declares himself Khan of the Franks after his victory over Henry of England in Orleans.
1257 In a daring attack by surprise Uguda's brother Khitia takes Constantinople and declares himself Khan of the Rum after killing the true Emperor.
1260-65 War between the Khanate of the Franks and the Khanate of the Rum.
1261 Henry III takes advantage of the war and recovers almost all the kingdom of France.
1263 Alfonso XI married to the Portugese Queen Blanca I is crowned King of Castille, Navarre and Aragon. His son Rodrigo II will be the first Rex Hispaniorum.
1265-67 Alfonso XI launches an offensive over the taifa kingdom of Grenade that falls. He continues the offensive securing the northern coast of Africa. However the policy of tolerance with other minorities continue. And in fact the army he sends to support the Romano-German Emperor Enrico VII consist basically on almoravid light cavalry.
1268 Enrico's crusade is a success and he manages to take most of Italy.
1272 Uguda Khan invades France taking advantage of the death of Henry III, retaking most of what was lost eleven years before. Peace of Orleans between the Anglo-Norman King, Edward I and Uguda Khan.
1279 Kublai Khan rules all China.
1283 The Japanese defeat an invading Chinese force.
1285-1293 War between the Khanate of the Franks allied to the Holy Roman Empire and the Khanate of Rum allied to the Anglo-Norman Kingdom.
1289 Rodrigo II is crowned Rex Hispaniorum. A period of peace and prosperity starts in the Iberian peninsula. Hispania intensifies trade links between Northern Europe and Africa.
1301 Tufan is annexed to the Great Khan Empire.
1310 The hispanic sailor Don Álvaro de Niebla reaches the Sultanate of Tumbuktu.
1325 Expansion of the Sri Vijayan kingdom.
1335 Edward of Scotland invades Ireland.
1342 A Chinese army is defeated in the North of Champa.
1349 Decomposition of the Kingdom of Angkor.

(to be continued after your comments)

 

[pa_dutch]

The only thing I don't understand is why the histories of the Mesoamerican nations and Tawantinsuyo are any different than in OTL. If they're still in isolation and unafected by the events of the Old World, isn't it logical that you'd still have the Aztecs, the divided Mayan states, and the Incas exactly the same? I could see the Mayan coalition forming and conquering the Aztecs some time later if the year 1492 passes without Europeans or anyone else stepping foot in the New World, but you're still in the 1300's... Unless perhaps you're implying that the Americas have been hit by Old World diseases as a result of Denmark paying closer attention to Greenland.

 

[Hermanubis]

If the Khan of the Franks converts to the Local Christianity, his Empire would probably have a greatly increased chance to survive longer…

 

[MerryPrankster]

Can we please have a Nestorian khanate? Or at least have the Nestorian sort of Christianity survive as a distinctive denomination in much greater numbers than OTL?

At least with Mongol dominion over most of Christendom, contacts between the Western Christians (Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant analogues) and the "Oriental Orthodox" Christians (Nestorians, Monophysites) will be greater. Plus, since the Mongols were religiously tolerant, religious violence will not be tolerated and both sides will have to deal with each other peacefully.

EDIT: What sort of social effects will increased movements of peoples have? We've got thousands of Italians being sent into the Mongol dominions and the Mongols will no doubt bring in Persians, Chinese, etc. to do stuff in Europe. Lots of cultural exchange going on here.

 

[Galbatorix]

The only thing I don't understand is why the histories of the Mesoamerican nations and Tawantinsuyo are any different than in OTL. If they're still in isolation and unafected by the events of the Old World, isn't it logical that you'd still have the Aztecs, the divided Mayan states, and the Incas exactly the same? I could see the Mayan coalition forming and conquering the Aztecs some time later if the year 1492 passes without Europeans or anyone else stepping foot in the New World, but you're still in the 1300's... Unless perhaps you're implying that the Americas have been hit by Old World diseases as a result of Denmark paying closer attention to Greenland.

i suppose diseases from the europeans in terranova had done their job.

 

[Wendell]

Will this lead to many Europeans bearing a Mongoloid complexion?

How come Timbuktu gets a coast to the south, instead of to the west, like in OTL?

 

[Darkest]

Very cool timeline, keep it up.

 

[Hermanubis]

Will this lead to many Europeans bearing a Mongoloid complexion?

Hmm, why would it do that?

 

[Nicole]

Hmm, why would it do that?

Intermarriage (Or Rape, I suppose) between Mongol Warriors and European Women, I guess...

 

[Condottiero]

The only thing I don't understand is why the histories of the Mesoamerican nations and Tawantinsuyo are any different than in OTL. If they're still in isolation and unafected by the events of the Old World, isn't it logical that you'd still have the Aztecs, the divided Mayan states, and the Incas exactly the same? I could see the Mayan coalition forming and conquering the Aztecs some time later if the year 1492 passes without Europeans or anyone else stepping foot in the New World, but you're still in the 1300's... Unless perhaps you're implying that the Americas have been hit by Old World diseases as a result of Denmark paying closer attention to Greenland.

The situation should be the same, Aztecs founded Tenochtitlan as their capitol around 1320; the mayans were in decomposition (I had no maps and I just reduced a bit their area); the Incans did not start their expansion until 1400s (ooops, I'll correct that).

 

[Condottiero]

Will this lead to many Europeans bearing a Mongoloid complexion?

I was thinking so, mongoloid-like europeans of nestorian religion around Germany, Poland and Hungary; mongoloid-like of ortodox religion in the Khanate of Rum.

How come Timbuktu gets a coast to the south, instead of to the west, like in OTL?

Ooops. You are right, I have been working back and forward in some maps and it seems I deleted the wrong lines. (it is the same it happened with the incans)

 

[Condottiero]

Can we please have a Nestorian khanate? Or at least have the Nestorian sort of Christianity survive as a distinctive denomination in much greater numbers than OTL?

At least with Mongol dominion over most of Christendom, contacts between the Western Christians (Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant analogues) and the "Oriental Orthodox" Christians (Nestorians, Monophysites) will be greater. Plus, since the Mongols were religiously tolerant, religious violence will not be tolerated and both sides will have to deal with each other peacefully.

EDIT: What sort of social effects will increased movements of peoples have? We've got thousands of Italians being sent into the Mongol dominions and the Mongols will no doubt bring in Persians, Chinese, etc. to do stuff in Europe. Lots of cultural exchange going on here.

Great idea. I was thinking that the Holy Roman Empire could recover Italy, but maybe I am going to make them less european oriented and more african-based with persian and chinese traders settling in Northern Italy...

 

[Galbatorix]

?are we going to have otoman turks? maybe they can be pushed to a different part of europe, otoman germany or otoman scandinavia.

?what names are the italian towns going to have? ?a mongol venice how would it name?