Ogadai survives a bit more

Timeline
January 1241 Subotai concentrates his army near Halicz and prepares to invade Europe.
April, 9 1241. The Mongols defeat an allied force of Germans, Poles, Templars and Teutonic Knights in Liegnitz.
April, 10 1241. the Hungarians are massacred by the Sajo river.
Summer 1241. Mongol army recovers from the conquest in Hungarian plains.
Fall 1241. Luois IX of France and Frederick II of Germany prepare armies to face the Mongols.
February 1242. POD: Ogadai recovers from an unexpected illness. He sends his last orders to Subotai to conquer Europe.
April 1242. The Mongols siege and take Viena.
May 1242. Fredericks army is destroyed by Munich. The Emperor barely escapes to Milan.
Summer 1242. The mongols take, sack and burn Hanover, Milan and Venice.
Fall 1242. The Emperor abandons Genoa as Mongol forces surround the city. Genoese pray for mercy but the city is not spared and thousands of citizens are enslaved and sent to the east.
February 1243. The Mongols cross the Rhine and defeat Louis IX army near Antwep. The french king dies in battle. Antwep, Bruges, Paris and Rheims are destroyed and the population scattered or enslaved.
Easter 1243. Rome is sacked and the Pope flees to Aragon where another army is being massed. Aragonese, Castillians, Navarrese and Portuguese will join under Alfonso X to fight off the invaders.
Summer 1243. The Mongols stop and rest in central France. While an english army under Henry III prepares in Aquitanie. The Pope arrives to Barcelone with the relics of St. Peter and St. Paul. The papacy will move to Compostela.
Fall 1243. Three battles are fought almost simultaneously while Naples is sacked and burned to the ground. The mongols are surprised in Pyrennaic passes by the hispanic armies, in Roncesvalles the main mongol army is surprised and defeated by a combined portuguese, castillian and navarrese army. A flanking force is defeated near Gerona, while another one is stopped by the walls of Bordeaux. But three of the Hispanic kings are dead, only Alfonso X survives.
Winter 1243. Subotai decides to concentrate on the East and takes Constantinople entering in Anatolia. The Bizantine Emperor is killed inside a sack just as the Caliph. As the Anatolian campaign is ending and Subotai is planning to come back to the west he dies near Ancyra.
Easter 1244. The Mongols have been stopped although most of Europe is devastated. The towns have been destroyed by the mongols whose herds now roam by the fields and the burned walls. Thousands flee to the lands of the Kings of England, the Hispanic Kingdoms and the few territories Frederick II can claim as his from his new court in Messina.

(to be continued)

map 1250.gif
 
For one thing, the court would be at Palermo, not Messina.

For another, I look foward to seeing the Mongols enjoy the weather in Lombardy. It's great for cavalry. Truly.

Mind, so is all of Europe.
 
Did they have all of China at this point? And why does the map show the Mayans and Inca, but not the Japanese?

(Anyway, the development of European civilization under the Mongol yoke should be interesting…)
 
I'm wondering, was it still the Byzantine Empire at the point you describe? It was probably, IIRC, the Latin Empire still at this point. And, IIRC, the Mongols in OTL supported the Armenian Kingdom in Cilicia, so shouldn't that still be around?
Also, I believe the Portuguese Reconquista eneded in the 1100s, I
m not completely sure though.
 
Now we're talking

Alright! :D

I was always intregued by a "Mongol smash Europe" scenario, but lacked the skill to come up with my own timeline. Keep coming. :)
 

Diamond

Banned
There are bugs to be worked out, not the least of which is the cavalry problem that Faeelin pointed out, but it's a good start. It's good to see someone actually attempt a Mongol Europe TL.
 
Theocracy

The centrifugal force that splintered the mongols in OTL would be in effect in this timeline as well, but before the mongols turns ineffectual the finish the conquest of france and the italian peninsula.
This leaves Spain, Britain, Denmark and Sweden all firmly under the pope who continually will advocate crusades to retake continental Europe.

The european population. While a large minority of the population in europe will have been killed still many will remain and form the basis for the mongol successor kingdoms. As the the mongols was absorbed by the chinese I believe they would be in europe over time.

The byzantine empire. The weak byzantine empire is replaced by mongols who now have access to a relatively strong technological base. This will stop the emergence of the turks. The mongol successor state in Anatolia/middle east will probably deadlock in a conflict with the Mameluks.

The black death. The black death does not hit europe quite as hard as in OTL depending on lower population densities. It seems likely that spain would be hardest hit given it's closeness to well-developed arab states.
This will give the mongol successor state in europe a breather from attacks from the perifery.

Slowly, like in Russia in OTL, the mongol successor states withdraw/collapse in continental europe while the perifery expands inwards.

To be continued/filled out :)
 
The byzantine empire. The weak byzantine empire is replaced by mongols who now have access to a relatively strong technological base. This will stop the emergence of the turks.
Ah, so the Mongols time-travel as well? :D
The Turkish Incursions into Anatolia can usually be dated to around 1071, which I believe is the Battle of Manzikert. So no luck getting rid of the Turks...
 
Hmm...what might the Mongol successor states in western Europe look like?

I came up with a "Mongols Conquer Most of Europe" scenario were Germany, Italy, and Poland were united as Russia-like absolute monarchies, due to the influence of the Mongols. Does that seem realistic?
 
Imajin said:
Ah, so the Mongols time-travel as well? :D
The Turkish Incursions into Anatolia can usually be dated to around 1071, which I believe is the Battle of Manzikert. So no luck getting rid of the Turks...

The Mongols probably could not get rid of the Turks completely, but they can definitely contain them. They might also see the horse-archer Turks as more difficult to control than the settled Byzantines, and focus on wiping them out.
 

Diamond

Banned
MerryPrankster said:
Hmm...what might the Mongol successor states in western Europe look like?

I came up with a "Mongols Conquer Most of Europe" scenario were Germany, Italy, and Poland were united as Russia-like absolute monarchies, due to the influence of the Mongols. Does that seem realistic?
I've started making notes on a TL like this for use in Alterverse. In it, the Low Countries region / Saxony, reinforced by British Crusaders (the Pope is in London) carve out a huge new nation by 1350, the Empire of Greater Saxony. Chaucer becomes a merchant instead of a writer, and discovers the Americas by accident in 1392. Fun and games ensue.
 
Diamond said:
I've started making notes on a TL like this for use in Alterverse. In it, the Low Countries region / Saxony, reinforced by British Crusaders (the Pope is in London) carve out a huge new nation by 1350, the Empire of Greater Saxony. Chaucer becomes a merchant instead of a writer, and discovers the Americas by accident in 1392. Fun and games ensue.

"The land is full of primitive savages, who are almost as barbaric as the Scots. The only advantage is that the weather is much nicer."
 
I seem to recall that European armies of the time were based primarily around heavy cavalry. Why would the weather and terrain impede Mongol light cavalry more than it did the Europeans?
 
Imajin said:
I'm wondering, was it still the Byzantine Empire at the point you describe? It was probably, IIRC, the Latin Empire still at this point. And, IIRC, the Mongols in OTL supported the Armenian Kingdom in Cilicia, so shouldn't that still be around?
Also, I believe the Portuguese Reconquista eneded in the 1100s, I
m not completely sure though.

Nope. It ended in early 1300s. The true breakthrough was made in las Navas the Tolosa. The castillians took Cordoba, then the Portuguese reached the Algarve and the last ones to fall were the Niebla Taifa Kingdom (on the portuguese side). Granada survived a couple of centuries because it was more profitable for the castillians to have their gold as taxes than destroying everything.
 
Forum Lurker said:
I seem to recall that European armies of the time were based primarily around heavy cavalry. Why would the weather and terrain impede Mongol light cavalry more than it did the Europeans?
Hispanic armies were quite un-european in that aspect. They relied less in heavy cavalry than in infantry and light cavalry. In the early XIV century you can find the Almogavers that was a typical unit of the peninsula.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Looking forward to see how this TL will turn out. As more Europeans travel to Mongolia to pay homage to their Khan overlord in the following years and decades, they'll likely be as awestruck as Marco Polo was in OTL by the wealth of the Mongols' capital, and incidentally discover a concept that was utterly foreign to their mindset, that of religious tolerance. As William of Rubroeck testified, Karakorum at the height of the Mongol hegemony boasted no fewer than 17 different religions, Nestorian Christianity included, all coexisting in peace.
More cross-cultural contact with other Eurasian cultures is to be expected as well, with interesting results. Oh, and if the trade routes remain safe for travel longer than in OTL, there won't be an incentive for the Europeans to seek another way to reach China, which was the main reason for Atlantic exploration in the late 15th century. So America may remain undiscovered for a while longer (except by the odd shipwrecked crew, just so the Native Americans get early exposure to Old World germs...).
 
Bright day
I am sorry but would Europe be really such a pushover?
I know that battle of Leignitz is often used as evidence, but (AFAIK) there were not that many troops and Henry entered field prematurely. If he managed to sit behind the walls for day more, reinforcements from Bohemia would arrive, at least doubling his numbers. The battle of Sajo river is simplier, oh only if the cuman khan was not killed by mob.

And some mongol's were defeated at Grobnicko Polje by Croatians...
 
How many Mongols by how many Croatians?

A Mongol occupation may also make the Central Europeans more paranoid and increase the possibility of an "Ivan the Terrible"-like autocrat...
 
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