Of the wall idea...Franco-German Detente...

I just had a truely of the wall idea for lasting (or semi-lasting, anyways) peace between France and Germany. Suppose that, after the Franco-Prussian war and German unification, Germany offers to sell or trade Alsace-Lorraine for some French colonies elsewhere as a way of settling the constant dispute over the territory. Germany gets an infusion of cash or colonies, and gets rid of a constantly festering flashpoint on its border--perhaps even reducing the tenderncy of Britain and France to get closer together.
Clearly we need a replacement for Kaiser Wilhelm I & II...but I can see Bismarck going for something like this if he got a good enough deal from France.
Possible, almost impossible, or pure ASB?
 
The annexation of Alsace-Lorraine is just one of a host of other things that the French hate the Germans over. They considered the Treaty of Frankfurt to be pretty humiliating. Also, no matter what the Germans do to 'placate' the French the over riding fact remains that the balance of power on the European continent has been changed for good and there is little that France can do besides another war to redress that balance.

The great change in French foreign relations begins in 1871 in which it starts a long process of slow searching out allies which eventually lead to the Dual Entente with Russia and eventually the Entente Cordiale with Britain.

There is some debate about the extent to which revanchism was still present in France in the early 1900s. The likely problem that the French would have faced, even if Alsace-Lorraine had not be taken as a war prize, is that the Germans would have become both economic and military rivals on the continent - positions that the French would have found themselves losing to the Germans.
 

Susano

Banned
Yes. Before WW1, France were the obsessive revanchists one couldnt reason with. Alsace-Lorraien was in majority ethncially German anyways, and France couldnt get over the fact it just wasnt the continental great power anymore. Once France accepts the territorial loss and that Germany just IS bigger in territroy and population, there could be a detente. It would have to statr on the French side.
 
Yes. Before WW1, France were the obsessive revanchists one couldnt reason with. Alsace-Lorraien was in majority ethncially German anyways, and France couldnt get over the fact it just wasnt the continental great power anymore. Once France accepts the territorial loss and that Germany just IS bigger in territroy and population, there could be a detente. It would have to statr on the French side.

...And Austria is not and will never be a part of the country of Germany and you folks should just accept that.

As you may have noticed, territorial revanchism has nothing to do with reason; it has to do with a sense of being wronged. The French would have to start detente but they have no real reason to.
 
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Susano

Banned
...And Austria is not and will never be a part of the country of Germany and you folks should just accept that.

As you may have noticed, territorial revanchism has nothing to do with reason; it has to do with a sense of being wronged. The French would have to start detente but they have no real reason to.

Yeah, well, obviously - as OTL showed.
 
Yes. Before WW1, France were the obsessive revanchists one couldnt reason with. Alsace-Lorraien was in majority ethncially German anyways, and France couldnt get over the fact it just wasnt the continental great power anymore.

:D

Your answer is hilarious, because I can't tell if you're serious or not. After all, which nation ended up occupying the Ruhr in 1923?
 

Susano

Banned
:D

Your answer is hilarious, because I can't tell if you're serious or not. After all, which nation ended up occupying the Ruhr in 1923?

France. Which just proves my point :p After WW1, yes, France was again the greater power than Germany. But even in the Interbvellum you have the problem that France cant accept that Germany will have greater economcial pull, larger ressources etc not because its better or meaner, but simply because its larger. IMO that even more than A-L is the problem, France will have to accept that geopolitical fact.
 
France. Which just proves my point :p After WW1, yes, France was again the greater power than Germany. But even in the Interbvellum you have the problem that France cant accept that Germany will have greater economcial pull, larger ressources etc not because its better or meaner, but simply because its larger. IMO that even more than A-L is the problem, France will have to accept that geopolitical fact.

But look what not accepting that gets you!

french_nukes.jpg


...And now nobody will mess with France ever again. :D
 
But look what not accepting that gets you!

french_nukes.jpg


...And now nobody will mess with France ever again. :D


What the frack is that from? It warms my heart.

Anyway, Susano, what you're saying is that France was no longer the greatest power, as opposed to no longer being a great power. And if the greatest power proceeds to get the rest of the world to hate it...
 
Yes. Before WW1, France were the obsessive revanchists one couldnt reason with. Alsace-Lorraien was in majority ethncially German anyways, and France couldnt get over the fact it just wasnt the continental great power anymore. Once France accepts the territorial loss and that Germany just IS bigger in territroy and population, there could be a detente. It would have to statr on the French side.
Replace France with Germany and Germany with France in your post, and it would still make just as much sense IMO.
 
Yes. Before WW1, France were the obsessive revanchists one couldnt reason with. Alsace-Lorraien was in majority ethncially German anyways, and France couldnt get over the fact it just wasnt the continental great power anymore. Once France accepts the territorial loss and that Germany just IS bigger in territroy and population, there could be a detente. It would have to statr on the French side.

Revanchism in France reached its peak during the Boulangiste crisis in the early 1890s, by WW1, revanchism was just one of the reasons to go to war with Germany; they were by no means "obsessive" revanchists however.

Also, is Alsace-Lorraine really ethnically majority German? I always got the impression that, although very close to Germany, it was still distinct enough (And, of course, this is to say nothing of the major cultural differences within Germany).

Other than that, I suppose it's true that following the Franco-Prussian war, any detente would have to be started by the French, and they really have no reason to do that, after all, they still had something that Germany never managed to match, and that was vast colonies that provided abundant resources (and in some cases manpower) for the Métropole.
 

Susano

Banned
What the frack is that from? It warms my heart.

Anyway, Susano, what you're saying is that France was no longer the greatest power, as opposed to no longer being a great power. And if the greatest power proceeds to get the rest of the world to hate it...
Yeah, well, bad diplomacy, the curse of Germany...


Replace France with Germany and Germany with France in your post, and it would still make just as much sense IMO.

Not quite. Germany was no friend fo france, its true,, and France maybe not well-liked in the population. But, having been the victro in 1871, they had no reason to hate France, and the political class surely wouldve foun dit much more convinient to not always have to build all foreign politics around the guiding principl eto oppose France...
 
I thought as much...

I had a bad feeling that a Franco-German detente would be very tough to near impossible. I'd say that serious tension between Britian and France would be needed, to get France looking elsewhere--and even then, tough!
 

Deleted member 1487

Ultimately one side or the other will have to accept the secondary position. OTL that was Germany after being split in two and essentially brain washed into buying the Allied line.
 
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