Sweet, you just butterflied the Riau Islands from Indonesian to Sarawakian jurisdiction.
Of Rajahs and Hornbills: A timeline of Brooke Sarawak
- Thread starter Al-numbers
- Start date
Tell that to UMNO politicians... A lot of them can trace their ancestry to Riau...
"My ancestor was from Riau."
"Oh? Sarawakian then?"
"Riau"
"Sarawak"
"Riau"
[10 minutes on]
I expect that Italian control of Aceh will be very nominal, and that any attempt to exert full authority will end the way the 1896 Ethiopian expedition did IOTL. On the other hand, Italy's ability to protect Aceh from Dutch incursions is probably not high.
The Biak Islands, for now, seem like a prestige colony or at most a coaling station, but it would be interesting if Italy picked up some of Papua, especially if a traders' pidgin based on Italian rather than German or English took root there.
The Biak Islands, for now, seem like a prestige colony or at most a coaling station, but it would be interesting if Italy picked up some of Papua, especially if a traders' pidgin based on Italian rather than German or English took root there.
Regarding Italy meddling, the British must take in consideration not only the local situation but even the european one.
Italy ITTL is the new kid on the block but also a nation that had clearly beat the Hapsburg on her own (probably also aquiring Trentino in the process in this war) making her a more interesting ally and frankly 6 more years of Cavour administration will have probably produced a situation at least a little better than OTL, in term of economy, industry and diplomatic recognition.
So it's both a possible rival but also a possible ally; Nappy III had always wanted an alliance with an Unified Italy (or at least the North Italian part and naturally with France as the dominant) but at the moment there is the Roman question that represent an almost insurmountable obstacle for this, still a Franco-Italian alliance is seen by London as a very problematic developement as it's mean the Mediterrean is no more British dominated.
Other probably tangential developement ITTL are:
- No attempt by Garibaldi to take Rome in 1862 (an endevour who caused him to be wounded by italian troops) as Cavour will have blocked his plan immediately so to not cause a rift with France.
- Maybe Cavour instead convince Garibaldi to accept the american offer of a commission in their army so to fight for the union so to foster better relations between the two nations...and to make a troublemaker take a long and distant 'vacation' (Ok it's more rule of cool but still a commission as at least colonel it's a serious possibility).
- somewhat better management of the Southern question and the immediate post unitary bandit problem
Italy ITTL is the new kid on the block but also a nation that had clearly beat the Hapsburg on her own (probably also aquiring Trentino in the process in this war) making her a more interesting ally and frankly 6 more years of Cavour administration will have probably produced a situation at least a little better than OTL, in term of economy, industry and diplomatic recognition.
So it's both a possible rival but also a possible ally; Nappy III had always wanted an alliance with an Unified Italy (or at least the North Italian part and naturally with France as the dominant) but at the moment there is the Roman question that represent an almost insurmountable obstacle for this, still a Franco-Italian alliance is seen by London as a very problematic developement as it's mean the Mediterrean is no more British dominated.
Other probably tangential developement ITTL are:
- No attempt by Garibaldi to take Rome in 1862 (an endevour who caused him to be wounded by italian troops) as Cavour will have blocked his plan immediately so to not cause a rift with France.
- Maybe Cavour instead convince Garibaldi to accept the american offer of a commission in their army so to fight for the union so to foster better relations between the two nations...and to make a troublemaker take a long and distant 'vacation' (Ok it's more rule of cool but still a commission as at least colonel it's a serious possibility).
- somewhat better management of the Southern question and the immediate post unitary bandit problem
Tell that to UMNO politicians... A lot of them can trace their ancestry to Riau...
With the plans I have for Riau (or Natuna and Anambas as they are called ITTL), maybe the politicians will instead say "My ancestor came from Palembang!" or something like that.
Other than that, the islands will form one of two things that will make Sarawak a lot more known ITTL, and a lot more intriguing to the outside world.
Probably true on Aceh. There's also the fact that the Acehnese has (and still have, to some extent) a really independent streak, making whatever power who wants direct control pay for it with lots of lives. Besides that, Italy will find out that just because they had a trained navy doesn't mean they can easily go against the Dutch, especially since the latter has been established in the region for a long while. Also, no nearby Italian ports to get hlep if things go sour.
On the other hand, the Sultan of Aceh might just side with the Italians against the Dutch in exchange for nominal control, though all bets are off with the Acehnese on the street. Either way, a war is brewing.
For the Biak Islands, for now they are just a prestige colony just to show Europe "We did it!". However, Italy is still around the area, and by 1871 they would have already traversed through (OTL) Cendrawasih Bay, with Italian shipping companies trailing close behind. Plans are already underway for a coaling station and port, and the Dutch are not happy with this.
Expect there to be some conflicts over Papua and any islands east of the Malukus probably around... mid-to-late 1870's, with the fallout continuing until the 1880's. (this discounts Aceh, Brunei, Johor, and any other sultanates the Italians have contact with).
Hmm... Italy defeating the Habsburgs will definitely put it into greater status in Europe (though some will point out that they had to ask North Germany for an alliance) and Cavour's extra years in government would make it more industrialized, at least in the northern parts. For the south... did Cavour and the governments under him approve much of protectionist policies? That would be a big step towards re-balancing development and wealth. Then again, that will not stop the country's population boom and that's a whole new can of worms to deal with.
Garibaldi didn't do an 1862 expedition but I can't help but wonder if he's the kind of guy to just sit around and letting the prime minister dictate what he can do. The American Civil War did sound attractive, and Cavour would likely want him to go there. All the same, I can't help but think he might pull an 1862 or go off to South America to join some conflict or other (Definitely not Aceh, though I wish he could). I'll leave this question to those more knowledgeable than me. What do you all think?
As for alliances, Napoleon III would likely court Italy, but after Cavour's death the new government(s) might not be warm to France, since Rome is technically protected by French troops. London would likely try to wedge in against any alliance-making, but I wonder if the Royal Navy might take things into their own hands by taking Tunisia itself, or at least it's ports; A more industrialized + colony-happy Italy would eye Tunisia a great deal earlier than OTL. Of course, such a move by the British would enrage Italy and make it lean even more towards a French alliance, so that's something to think about.
Then again, it's already 1871 and all in all, Nappy III might not be on the throne much longer. Oh well, at least I can write everyone's reactions to the Franco-Prussian War in the East Indies.
Last edited:
Italy immediately after the declared unification was a mess, almost nobody speak the same language, different institution and even different system of measurament and the fact that the goverment were weak and lasted less than a year surely doesn't help.
The existence of a single continuos goverment for 6/7 years will surely smooth things up...at least a little.
Cavour was a liberal and during his tenure as politician in Piedmont greatly favored free trade and the southern question it's a problem that even today is relevant, much of the initial rebellion was due to the imposition of Savoyard institution, poor redistribution of the land (the only capable of buy it were the rich landowner so the little guys were in trouble as even the traditional communal land were gone), the institution of the army proscription and the general fact that the piedmontese were basically foreiginer in the former Kingdom of the Two Sicilies; not counting the fact that only 2% of the people in Italy had the right of vote.
Maybe the imposition of the conscription in the army will be more gradual (smoothing things out, at least a little) and there will be an enlargement of the franchise, but otherwise i doubt that even Cavour can resolve the situation
It is...if there are enough soldiers around him to force it (thing that Cavour will surely done), naturally to simply assuring the safety of General.
Say that, the two men had a very stormy relationships and generally they don't like each other very much but both loved Italy too much to keep thing like personal feeling and ego to get in the way.
Garibaldi will protest, but it will not make a great fuss in pubblic...privately it's another matter.
The ACW or South America are IMHO the more probable...if Cavour is still alive due to him being too terrified that Garibaldi will cause a war with France by accident, so he will keep the General under strict surveillance.
OTL British political move was brilliant, as at the same time blocked the attempt of a single power to have control of the sicily straits and stop seriously any effort of France to ally with Italy (nobody in France seriously though that the italians allied themself with Germany and A-H)...getting direct control of Tunisia mean giving France a great occasion for bring Italy in the fold, can happen but head will roll in London.
Thanks for enjoying this!
On China, definitely. The Qing Empire will be attractive to the Great Powers the same way it was attractive IOTL, and Italy will want a piece of it. The British will be most definitely unhappy about this and would try to limit Rome's reach over there, but a treaty port or two would be on the Italian agenda for sure. The Japanese...I actually haven't thought about them much *oops* but I think it's political and economic situation will be more or less the same ITTL, and a British alliance is also secured.
As for Aceh, let's just say there are now two Great Powers already eyeing it and neither of them wants to back down. I can't help but sympathize with the Acehnese for this.
Well, it's easy to enjoy
Italy's probably going to try to build a larger navy than OTL, and build it quickly - if they want to claim and defend land that's so far from the homeland, then they need to. Which could lead to additional hostility between themselves and the naval giant that is Britain, like happened with the German build-up OTL. And that could lead to a different lot of alliances by the 20th century, depending on how far you go.
Sarawak has a lot of potential as a nation. If it manages a gradual modernisation, then it'll be in a nice position to make use of its oil reserves when they become relevant...
True, and with the man around, I would think there would some pushes towards re-balancing the more destitute parts of Italy, as well as bridging the gap between north and south. Then again, with all the post-Risorgimento problems, maybe this one is just too tough for him to handle.
As for Garibaldi, with all the info from here and elsewhere (thanks, BTW
) I'll flip a coin and say he went to the Americas between 1861 to 1865. Maybe he joins the ACW, or went on a country-hopping quest in South America, fighting for freedom. I do wonder what he thinks of the blacks...As for Tunisia, hmm... wasn't there a time when Italy pleaded to France to make the place an Italo-French condominium? With Rome being more powerful ITTL, I could see them offering the option to France in the 1870's, though that might even cause more heads to roll in London.
Well, it's easy to enjoy
Italy's probably going to try to build a larger navy than OTL, and build it quickly - if they want to claim and defend land that's so far from the homeland, then they need to. Which could lead to additional hostility between themselves and the naval giant that is Britain, like happened with the German build-up OTL. And that could lead to a different lot of alliances by the 20th century, depending on how far you go.
Sarawak has a lot of potential as a nation. If it manages a gradual modernisation, then it'll be in a nice position to make use of its oil reserves when they become relevant...
Huh, never thought of it that way. With Italy being on the east earlier than OTL - and nabbing a colony, no less - I could easily see a massive buildup of the Italian fleet, both to get new territories and to protect it's sultanates (hello, Aceh). This would make the Anglo-Dutch rivalry look microscopic by comparison, and would make both of them + Sarawak even more protective of their holdings.
Hmm... considering the alliance system, I would say that a World War would be near impossible to ignore, but I'm really unfamiliar with war POD's in general so I have absolutely no idea how to tread with this. Still though, I think it would be nice to see how everything goes ITTL, especially since Italy has now replaced France as the greatest irk to the British Empire, if for the moment.
So, British+Dutch vs. Italy+...Russia? France? Germany? A-H? What about the Ottomans? I'm planning them to win the Russo-Turkish War so there a high chance for for both of them to be enemies. Kostantiniyye would probably swing to the British Empire to contain Russia, which makes the latter...align to Italy?
As for Sarawak, let's just say they will form one of the most important parts of this Southeast Asia. Having some natural resources under an absolute monarch can do wonders for a country.
On another note, over the past few days I've been busy drawing up a map of Maritime Southeast Asia post-1871, just to show how much has the place changed with everyone and their mother now claiming all the islands
. It's almost done, and I think I might complete it by tonight.
Last edited:
Maybe France...after all, their colonial rivalry with Britain could get pretty intense (Fashoda, anyone?). And I could see a potential mutual agreement in East Asia - they both agree to look after one another's interests there in the event of war with a third party. Especially if the Italian fleet does expand heavily - the French could see them as a useful ally to bulk out their own naval assets.
True about natural resources and absolute monarchs - provided the monarch in question sees the value of putting the money into infrastructure and such rather than building his fifth palace I don't think that'll be a major problem here, though.
True about natural resources and absolute monarchs - provided the monarch in question sees the value of putting the money into infrastructure and such rather than building his fifth palace
I don't think that'll be a major problem here, though.
Map of the East Indies: 1870's
Maybe France...after all, their colonial rivalry with Britain could get pretty intense (Fashoda, anyone?). And I could see a potential mutual agreement in East Asia - they both agree to look after one another's interests there in the event of war with a third party. Especially if the Italian fleet does expand heavily - the French could see them as a useful ally to bulk out their own naval assets.
True about natural resources and absolute monarchs - provided the monarch in question sees the value of putting the money into infrastructure and such rather than building his fifth palace
Oooh, wasn't there one time when France wanted to expand into Indochina and the Pearl River Delta and asked for anyone to join in? I think that happened in the 1890's, I can't remember the source, but I distinctly remember that part. With the possibly of Tunisia being a Italo-French condominium, she could easily be Britain's other enemy, especially since the Congo issue hasn't been resolved yet (Sorry Leopold, but you've gotta go). That just leaves Germany and Austria-Hungary. Heh, imagine if all Europe went to war and the two powers everyone thought would fight didn't. Talk about irony.
So Britain+Dutch vs. Italy+France, with the Ottomans and Russia possibly joining in for another slugfest. No clue on Germany and Austria-Hungary, though I might throw in a Sámuel Teleki update by the end of the 1800's.
As for Sarawak's natural resources, the only hint I can give you is that Charles Brooke was remarkably...practical. Perhaps too practical for his own good.
And as I promised, the map I've been working on or the past few days or so! Et voilà!
What do you all think? It's not perfect, but it does give a general view of the East Indies after the hubbub of 1870-71.
Oh, and the region in full splendor can be seen here.
Last edited:
Oooh, wasn't there one time when France wanted to expand into Indochina and the Pearl River Delta and asked for anyone to join in? I think that happened in the 1890's, I can't remember the source, but I distinctly remember that part. With the possibly of Tunisia being a Italo-French condominium, she could easily be Britain's other enemy, especially since the Congo issue hasn't been resolved yet (Sorry Leopold, but you've gotta go). That just leaves Germany and Austria-Hungary. Heh, imagine if all Europe went to war and the two powers everyone thought would fight didn't. Talk about irony.
IRC it was during the Sino-French war that Paris asked if anyone was interested in join her in the endevour and if there is a France-Italian alliance plus a sizeble italian colonial interest in the zone it's probable that Rome will lend an hand (expecially if it mean some support in the zone from France and a port treaty in China).
Regarding Tunisia, now the French takeover took in consideration the fact that nobody thoughs Italy objected as just week before it signed an important commercial agreement with France and the new kingdom was had a great monetary debt with the Third French Republic; now a little more powerful Italy (plus some more 'street creed'), with a slighlty better internal and economic situation can be seen as a strong enough opponet to put the conquest project in hold.
Both France and Italy at the time were isolated diplomatically so politicians in Paris can see an alliance with the italians favorable enough to take in consideration a condominioum over Tunisia or at least protect the italian economic interest and rights.
A Franco-Italian alliance will make people sweats a lot in London, expecially an Italy with a stronger navy (and without the commercial war with France in the 80's Italy will be a lot more strong economically) and ironically this alliance can scare Wien (and Moscow) enough to keep the three emperor's alliance as with Cavour at the helm for another handfull of years Italy will have a more liberal attitude
A Franco-Italian alliance would mean the Mediterranean becomes a Latin Lake (Latin Alliance being a possible name).
London might seek out Vienna as a possible check against this... even though Berlin would still be a rival, Vienna's interests don't really conflict with London. Plus, with Austria being supported by Britain itself, that Austrian colony in Borneo might not be so far-fetched anymore.
London might seek out Vienna as a possible check against this... even though Berlin would still be a rival, Vienna's interests don't really conflict with London. Plus, with Austria being supported by Britain itself, that Austrian colony in Borneo might not be so far-fetched anymore.
Awesome map. That alliance system sounds pretty much right - and let's face it, it wouldn't be the first time the English and Dutch had teamed up against France Germany and Austria... I'd agree with Badshah about Austria definitely being courted by Britain. Germany would depend on who ran it - if Bismarck ended up in charge as OTL, I can see Britain maybe forming a temporary alliance. Like, still rivals, but recognising that they share enemies (especially given that Bismarck had no real interest in colonial ventures, that alone would make him less threatening to England than the Latin Alliance).
Inspired by this TL, I've started reading The White Rajah by Steven Runciman (that was after reading the Wikipedia entry ). Interesting that a guy whose main specialty was Byzantium and the Crusades chose that as his sole foray into modern history, butI can really see why the Brookes and their history inspired you the way it did!
Germany and Austria... I'd agree with Badshah about Austria definitely being courted by Britain. Germany would depend on who ran it - if Bismarck ended up in charge as OTL, I can see Britain maybe forming a temporary alliance. Like, still rivals, but recognising that they share enemies (especially given that Bismarck had no real interest in colonial ventures, that alone would make him less threatening to England than the Latin Alliance).Inspired by this TL, I've started reading The White Rajah by Steven Runciman (that was after reading the Wikipedia entry
). Interesting that a guy whose main specialty was Byzantium and the Crusades chose that as his sole foray into modern history, butI can really see why the Brookes and their history inspired you the way it did!Hmm...given the financial situation caused by the Bey trying to reform the place, I could see the debt "commission" sent by Europe in 1869 to include more Italian members than OTL. In time, the British, French, and Italians would try to gain influence over Tunisia by using it's finances, and London will be spooked. I think then by 1875-1879 either Italy or France shall finally try to take over the Bey, offering to share Tunisia via a condominium. Most likely, this will happen after the Russo-Turkish War as Europe would want at least something after the Ottomans defeated Russia.
How does that sound?
And I agree, the Latin Alliance sounds like a usable term, though I wonder what will they call themselves once other powers join in the fray.
True, and influence in China would also be a boost for Italian prestige. Other than that, it would provide the perfect powder keg for the Philippine Revolution and it's aftermath. Considering all the deals made by the southern sultanates, there will be many eyes looking at Sulu and Maguindanao once the Spanish are booted out.
Hmm... I dunno much about this part, but didn't the Three Emperors League fell apart anyhow due to disagreements between all the three powers? And political leanings don't necessarily guarantee imperial alliances, the Franco-Russian one being the most memorable to me. Who knows, maybe the alliance system ITTL will go a bit weird as well.
Awesome map. That alliance system sounds pretty much right - and let's face it, it wouldn't be the first time the English and Dutch had teamed up against France
This is the one thing I'm extremely clueless about. If London courts Austria, then it's probable Germany would get involved as well, and I'm really in two minds about this. On one hand, there's Kaiser Wilhelm and the man will probably start a war with some power or other anyhow (though the Prussian government and the palace are also at fault here). Plus, his naval arms-race would anger Britain as much as the Italians did, so I'm really tempted for him to have an "accident" and have one of his brothers rule instead.
On the other, there's also Bismarck, it's possible that with him around Germany and Great Britain would form an alliance together to combat "mutual enemies". However, I'm really worried that a war with him around would take longer to develop, with the Chancellor being so gung-ho about preserving the balance of power in Europe (and isolating France).
I really want a war starting at the first decade of the 1900's, maybe between 1906-1910. That way it would provide Southeast Asia a different catalyst for modernization and/or invasion, not to mention it was this decade that many of the central and supporting characters in this TL (The Brookes, Abu Bakar, etc.) would live their last years, and I want them to do something in all the fighting and chaos.
Inspired by this TL, I've started reading The White Rajah by Steven Runciman (that was after reading the Wikipedia entry
The Brookes really are something aren't they?
If you want to learn more on just how Sarawak was in the 1800's, I'd really recommend My Life In Sarawak by Margaret Brooke. She was the wife of Charles Brooke and lived in Sarawak as the Ranee of the kingdom, a literal queen. She's patronizing and there's also a bit of romanticism in the words, but there's a surprising amount of honesty in which she describes Sarawak, the Dayaks, and how she eventually made friends with them, as well as describing how the Rajah's administration actually works in practice. There's also an enormous amount of information and world-building too.ITTL, Margaret is still the wife, but she will be one of the last holdovers from OTL, and her children will be a completely different set than to the ones that exist today.
You may want to rephrase that question. Spain will try to subdue the southern sultanates just like OTL, but there's still a chance for a foreign power to nab a bit of territory from them, just like Von Overbeck did IOTL.
And speaking of him, we may find a different person acquiring North Borneo - or rather the eastern portion of it - by the late 1870's. By now, I think there'll be enough butterflies to prevent Overbeck from being the Austro-Hungarian consul to Hong Kong, so it may not be A-H that would nab the area ITTL (though I really wish they did. It just sounds so damn cool!!)
Actually Germany needn't be formally involved. Austria-Hungary and Britain didn't have bad relations OTL, and the Austrians do have an interest in a stable Ottoman Empire. And if Britain is firmly supporting Austria, then Austria doesn't need to stick as firmly to Germany as OTL. Vienna could probably be a benign neutral in a Europe-wide conflict for once.
I have to admit, a neutral A-H with a stake in Sarawak sounds very much like something I want to see happen.
But I'm worried for Serbia and the Balkans; with a timeline this far back, there is a major chance for the Back Hand to be butterflied. Still, that doesn't mean Serbian or Bulgarian nationalism will be a done thing, especially if Russia supports them against A-H and the Ottomans.So, all in all...
Great Britain/Netherlands + Ottomans vs. Latin Alliance (Italy & France) + Russia.
Austria-Hungary may swing to London (Hello, new Quadruple Alliance!!) or stays neutral. Still no idea on Germany.
Perhaps my eyes have failed me, I believe you forgot to colour Penang as part of the Straits Settlement on the map. Might want to use a more distinct colour for areas of British control and influence.
I have to admit, a neutral A-H with a stake in Sarawak sounds very much like something I want to see happen.
So, all in all...
Great Britain/Netherlands + Ottomans vs. Latin Alliance (Italy & France) + Russia.
Austria-Hungary may swing to London (Hello, new Quadruple Alliance!!) or stays neutral. Still no idea on Germany.
The foreign policy of Bismarckian Germany was focused primarily on containing France but otherwise remaining a "neutral broker" between the nations of Europe, so Berlin can really swing either way if their stance is close to the OTL one.
Also I could theoretically see an Austro-Hungarian company specifically founded for trade of all sorts with Sarawak, since that is actually something the Dual Monarchy could pull off without making it too much of a complicated mess (which hindered AH from partaking in the colonial game IOTL).
Yeah, that bothered me too when I finished it. I wanted to use a darker red for the Straits Settlements, but I already used that for Sarawak and Italy so light pink it had to be. If you look closely on the full version, you can see Penang and Province Wellesley colored in light pink, but I can see why you can't on the noted map.
Hmm... Germany will need some further thinking, then. Bismarck or no Bismarck, Wilhelm or no Wilhelm, the Great War (Great Eurasian War?) will more than likely happen, and I prefer it to be right in the 1900's. I just hope they won't end up as the principal losers like OTL, that's more butterflies than I can handle.
And that's an interesting idea for the Dual Monarchy to get involved in colonialism; establish exclusive colonial trade rather than go for colonies themselves, and I think I know just how to do it, and the people too.
Last edited: