But does that actually affect British decision making, does that make them so confident Kirkuk is out of danger to ignore it altogether?
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Part 68
Sivas, February 4th, 1941
Recep Peker signed the order for the general mobilization of the Turkish army. Back in November despite Greek mobilization, Turkey had not followed with her mobilization, the economic cost would had been just too much to declare a general mobilization prematurely. But now with German troops and aircraft moving into Serbia and Bulgaria the time of crisis was coming. Whether Turkey joined the war directly or blackmailed the Greeks and the British into complying with her territorial ambitions the time was coming.
Straits of Otranto, February 6th, 1941
The torpedoes cleared the forward tubes of Pipinos to be followed by a series of explosions a few minutes later as the torpedoes found their target, an Italian merchantman in a convoy heading to the port of Bar in occupied Montenegro. The dozen Greek submarines had proved themselves a problem for Italian convoys moving men and supplies across the Atlantic but not without cost as Triton had been sunk by Italian destroyers a few weeks earlier.
Liverpool, February 8th, 1941
HMS Furious left port, with 49 new Hurricanes, some crated other fully operational aboard. If all went according to plan, Furious would upload her aircraft in Dakar in February 19th and head back to Britain. This was the third transport mission Furious was doing since November. A fourth operation was already planned for early March.
Washington DC, February 8th, 1941
The Lend Lease act passed the US House of Representatives, with Britain and Greece as the first proposed recipients of the act, with artillery and aircraft earmarked for Greece. Greece had already been promised 30 P-40 fighters outside the act but this was becoming a source of political embarrassment at the moment as deliveries had failed to take place so far despite a promise directly from Roosevelt, between the British purchasing committee in the US refusing to part with the aircraft from their own part of US aircraft production and the US Army Air Corps also objecting to giving the aircraft out of its own share as it had already been forced to provide 100 aircraft for China. Given the strength of the China lobby in Washington that was untouchable. But the Greek War Relief Association was very active itself and the British purchasing committee had made a bit of a fool of itself when it claimed the Greeks could not operate modern aircraft at the very moment, that thanks to Skouras, newsreels across US cinemas were showing the HAF heroically fighting off the Italians over the skies of Macedonia...
Tripoli, February 11th, 1941
The first German units landed in the port. Lieutenant general Erwin Rommel would join them, three days later. But the first of the 155 tanks of the 5th PanzerRegiment were not expected before February 25th.
Sirte, February 15th, 1941
A column of Centaur tanks of the 2nd Armoured brigade entered the town. According to intelligence reports the Germans were landing in Tripoli, but so far they were nowhere in sight and with Italian resistance still weak O'Connor had decided to take his chances despite by now his tanks running almost on fumes...
Sedes airport, Thessaloniki, February 16th, 1941
The Ierax fighter came down trailing smoke, as 2nd lieutenant Spyros Pisanos unstrapped himself and jumped off the cockpit. The ground crew broke out in cheers when he answered the question whether he had hit anything by raising a couple fingers. The HAF had just got her newest ace. Not bad for a kid that had managed to get a place in the Air Force school at Tatoi back in 1938 by the opportune combination of the mass expansion of the air force at the time and a couple of the trainers interjecting in his favour at the very time he thought his only option to become a flier was emigrating to the US. The squadron commander was much grimmer were he took his officer's the report. The roads down from Skopje were thick with German columns moving south, while German aircraft had joined up the Italians north of the front making reconnaissance nearly suicidal, there was a reason the high command had resorted to using Pulawski's machines on the mission as at 570 km/h they were the fastest aircraft available to the allied side in theatre. Unless he missed his guess, it was just a matter of time before the balloon went up. What would happen then was anyone's guess. The HAF fliers and their comrades, 9 RAF squadrons, a Free French Groupe de Chasse and the survivors of the VVKJ had fought the Italians and Bulgarians and Hungarians to a standstill in the air, as far as 2nd Bureau [1] could tell Axis casualties run to over 400 aircraft since the entry of Greece in the world. But the allies had also lost over 200 aircraft themselves...
Athens, February 18th, 1941
Ion Dragoumis was completely unfazed as Victor Sergej Heinrich Bruno Karl Prinz zu Erbach-Schönberg, the German ambassador in Athens, showed up to his office at dawn claiming urgent business. "So it's war?" he only asked. Erbach had tried to sugarcoat things a bit "German troops need to enter Greece to eject the British from your country. It is for Greece's own good." the German had claimed. "So it is war" was the sole answer. German artillery and dive bombers were already attacking the Greek fortifications in Thrace and Macedonia as Luftwaffe bombers were on their way to targets in the interior of Greece...
[1] Intelligence
Appendix German order of battle for invasion of Greece
12 Army
Recep Peker signed the order for the general mobilization of the Turkish army. Back in November despite Greek mobilization, Turkey had not followed with her mobilization, the economic cost would had been just too much to declare a general mobilization prematurely. But now with German troops and aircraft moving into Serbia and Bulgaria the time of crisis was coming. Whether Turkey joined the war directly or blackmailed the Greeks and the British into complying with her territorial ambitions the time was coming.
Straits of Otranto, February 6th, 1941
The torpedoes cleared the forward tubes of Pipinos to be followed by a series of explosions a few minutes later as the torpedoes found their target, an Italian merchantman in a convoy heading to the port of Bar in occupied Montenegro. The dozen Greek submarines had proved themselves a problem for Italian convoys moving men and supplies across the Atlantic but not without cost as Triton had been sunk by Italian destroyers a few weeks earlier.
Liverpool, February 8th, 1941
HMS Furious left port, with 49 new Hurricanes, some crated other fully operational aboard. If all went according to plan, Furious would upload her aircraft in Dakar in February 19th and head back to Britain. This was the third transport mission Furious was doing since November. A fourth operation was already planned for early March.
Washington DC, February 8th, 1941
The Lend Lease act passed the US House of Representatives, with Britain and Greece as the first proposed recipients of the act, with artillery and aircraft earmarked for Greece. Greece had already been promised 30 P-40 fighters outside the act but this was becoming a source of political embarrassment at the moment as deliveries had failed to take place so far despite a promise directly from Roosevelt, between the British purchasing committee in the US refusing to part with the aircraft from their own part of US aircraft production and the US Army Air Corps also objecting to giving the aircraft out of its own share as it had already been forced to provide 100 aircraft for China. Given the strength of the China lobby in Washington that was untouchable. But the Greek War Relief Association was very active itself and the British purchasing committee had made a bit of a fool of itself when it claimed the Greeks could not operate modern aircraft at the very moment, that thanks to Skouras, newsreels across US cinemas were showing the HAF heroically fighting off the Italians over the skies of Macedonia...
Tripoli, February 11th, 1941
The first German units landed in the port. Lieutenant general Erwin Rommel would join them, three days later. But the first of the 155 tanks of the 5th PanzerRegiment were not expected before February 25th.
Sirte, February 15th, 1941
A column of Centaur tanks of the 2nd Armoured brigade entered the town. According to intelligence reports the Germans were landing in Tripoli, but so far they were nowhere in sight and with Italian resistance still weak O'Connor had decided to take his chances despite by now his tanks running almost on fumes...
Sedes airport, Thessaloniki, February 16th, 1941
The Ierax fighter came down trailing smoke, as 2nd lieutenant Spyros Pisanos unstrapped himself and jumped off the cockpit. The ground crew broke out in cheers when he answered the question whether he had hit anything by raising a couple fingers. The HAF had just got her newest ace. Not bad for a kid that had managed to get a place in the Air Force school at Tatoi back in 1938 by the opportune combination of the mass expansion of the air force at the time and a couple of the trainers interjecting in his favour at the very time he thought his only option to become a flier was emigrating to the US. The squadron commander was much grimmer were he took his officer's the report. The roads down from Skopje were thick with German columns moving south, while German aircraft had joined up the Italians north of the front making reconnaissance nearly suicidal, there was a reason the high command had resorted to using Pulawski's machines on the mission as at 570 km/h they were the fastest aircraft available to the allied side in theatre. Unless he missed his guess, it was just a matter of time before the balloon went up. What would happen then was anyone's guess. The HAF fliers and their comrades, 9 RAF squadrons, a Free French Groupe de Chasse and the survivors of the VVKJ had fought the Italians and Bulgarians and Hungarians to a standstill in the air, as far as 2nd Bureau [1] could tell Axis casualties run to over 400 aircraft since the entry of Greece in the world. But the allies had also lost over 200 aircraft themselves...
Athens, February 18th, 1941
Ion Dragoumis was completely unfazed as Victor Sergej Heinrich Bruno Karl Prinz zu Erbach-Schönberg, the German ambassador in Athens, showed up to his office at dawn claiming urgent business. "So it's war?" he only asked. Erbach had tried to sugarcoat things a bit "German troops need to enter Greece to eject the British from your country. It is for Greece's own good." the German had claimed. "So it is war" was the sole answer. German artillery and dive bombers were already attacking the Greek fortifications in Thrace and Macedonia as Luftwaffe bombers were on their way to targets in the interior of Greece...
[1] Intelligence
Appendix German order of battle for invasion of Greece
12 Army
- XL Panzer Corps
- 9 Panzer Division
- 73 Infanterie Division
- XLI Panzer Corps
- 5 Panzer Division
- "Das Reich" SS Infanterie Division
- XVIII Mountain Corps
- 2 Panzer Division
- 5 Gebirgs Division
- 6 Gebirgs Division
- XXX Corps
- 50 Infanterie Division
- 72 Infanterie Division
- 164 Infanterie Division
Small typo in there, unless some ASB moved the Straits of Orlando in the Atlantic...
Lots of losses for the Allied Air Forces, what is the monthly rate of aircraft production in Greece ? Have there been any replacements? What type of aircraft does RAF operate in Greece?
Subtle.
In OTL HMS Furious did two runs at that time instead of three. Having Dakar closer than Takoradi is pretty useful, not to mention that it is a superior ports with better infrastructure. Since there is no need for Club Runs, HMS Ark Royal can be used periodically for ferrying aircraft to Dakar. If not, Sommerville can stage more raids against Sardinia and itallian shipping in the Tyrrhenian Sea. In a few days HMS Formitable arrives as well, so HMS Glorious can be dedicated in aircraft ferrying and hunting raiders in the Atlantic.
Bottomline, the Allied air forces in the Balkans and Cyrenaica can be strengthened faster compared to OTL.
That can bite O'Connor in the ass. In contrast to many "Operation Compass succeeds" timelines, the British simply did not have the logistics capacity to supply a drive west of El Agheila. At least the 2nd Armoured Division is sent to Libya, so Sirte can buy time for the Commonwealth to dig in at El Agheila and bring forward supplies. Any garrison left at Sirte will be sacrificed, unless during Cunningham's bombardment of Tripoli, the Italians suffer a "Clan Fraser" incident.
Nice butterfly!
What about John Plagis ? He was born in Rhodesia before the POD. However, I can see a way to have him in HAF. Plagis' father hailed from the village of Kontias in Lemnos Island. However, in OTL there were a lot of refugees from Asia Minor that were settled in Kontias - and other places in the island. Without these settlers there will be abundance of land, so Plagis' family may return to Lemnos.
Well, that is the benefit of having a Prime Minister that has valuable experience in propaganda.
In order to have these 10 german divisions at the frontline and supply them, how many italian and bulgarian units had to withdraw ?
Where are the French and Poles positioned ?
How many Italians are committed to this Balkan invasion? OTL they had more than half a million in Albania alone I would expect that they have way more now that they have a bigger front.
The Germans ITTL don't have to worry about the Turks attacking them on the flanks and the Bulgarians are already committed into the war so they have way better support on the infantry front and they can focus on the weak points of the defense lines. On the other hand you have extra French and Polish forces on the front as well as a lot more anti-tank weapons.
So it is war....
The Germans ITTL don't have to worry about the Turks attacking them on the flanks and the Bulgarians are already committed into the war so they have way better support on the infantry front and they can focus on the weak points of the defense lines. On the other hand you have extra French and Polish forces on the front as well as a lot more anti-tank weapons.
So it is war....
Let me only note that the TTL Italian Balkans campaign has been much less of an embarrassment than the OTL one. Yes they have been stopped cold in their invasion of Greece and lost the Dodecanese but only after conquering most of Yugoslavia in 7 weeks...
That's inevitable, they've been fighting for the past 3.5 months an Italian air force of about 700 aircraft on average in addition to the Bulgarians and Hungarians who start with over 300 aircraft each. The RAF, out of 9 squadrons in Greece 2 have Hurricanes, 1 has Gladiators, 5 Blenheims and 1 Wellingtons. The French have LN-161s and Martin 167s. There have been some replacements but not many, at least for the Greeks, Yugoslavs and French. Greek industry delivered 15 Ierax and PZL 37s in the first two months of 1941, that's actually up from 1940 where deliveries averaged 6 per month. Some Gladiators and Blenheims have been delivered to the Yugoslavs. And that's it...Small typo in there, unless some ASB moved the Straits of Orlando in the Atlantic...
Lots of losses for the Allied Air Forces, what is the monthly rate of aircraft production in Greece ? Have there been any replacements? What type of aircraft does RAF operate in Greece?
It is fewer. The German army needs to be supplied by the Belgrade-Thessaloniki railroad, or the Bulgarian railroads. But the same railroads TTL need also to keep in supply the Italian and Bulgarian armies also fighting the Greeks. The transportation capacity had to come from somewhere...
Frankly they need it. By the time the battle of Britain ended (for various definitions of ended, the Blitz goes on) RAF had lost 174 aircraft fewer than OTL. It makes sense quite a few of these will be finding their way to the Mediterranean.
Possibly. O'Connor himself believed he could push a force at least up to Sirte... and TTL you'll note 2nd Armoured brigade has brand new Centaurs, not the mostly shot up cruiser tanks it had in OTL. Remember the 100 Centaurs of the initial Greek order from Vickers you kept asking about? Well they've just shown up.
At the same time the Germans are not there yet, to use the excellent Crusader project 5 PanzerRegiment tanks are shipped between 25 February and 15 March and till the 4 March convoy arrives in Tripoli it has all of 6 tanks... You also have Arriete of course but it is also still arriving to Tripoli.Plagis was born in Rhodesia in 1919. Of course his family may well have come back to Greece TTL. Or for that matter when he volunteers for service he may well find him with the HAF. I'm undecided. Same with a certain Panos Doukakis. Now the Doundoulakis bros and Nick Christofilou are likely making an appearance sooner or later. And have I mentioned the "Greek Trilogy" of Elia Kazan? No I have not.
Also having the fellow who runs 20th Century Fox in tow helps...
I'll only say that six Italian divisions have been moved to the Albanian front...
That's an interesting question not least because unlike OTL Pangalos has a sizeable army in the Macedonian front. In OTL there were 6 understrength Greek divisions in addition to the 2 Anzac divisions. TTL you have 27 allied divisions in Macedonia (12 Greek, 2 British, 2 French, 3 Polish and 8 Yugoslav) to hold a front of about 180 km, plus a 80km fortified sector to the east of that with a substantial portion of this front being mountainous. Not everyone is needed in the front, Pangalos in all like-hood is holding a substantial operational/strategic reserve... besides being pragmatic enough to be already preparing his fallback position on the Olympus as mentioned in part 67.
Overall? Between Albania and Macedonia the Italians have 31 divisions committed including, 2 armoured, 3 Celere and 4 Alpini ones which by all accounts were as good as any at the time. Add to this 17 Bulgarian divisions (15 infantry and 2 cavalry) in Macedonia and Thrace.
And the Yugoslavs. What remains of the Yugoslav army at this point is the units that went on fighting and have had by now nearly 3 months to catch their breath. They are cohesive, veteran units at this point not unlike their forefathers in 1916-18. The unmotivated, the disloyal, the incompetent and the unlucky were shed away one way or the other during the Italian invasion and the retreat to Greece.
From the little I could gather on Sirte at the time, there was nothing much of note besides the old Turkish fort (I didn't get if the Italians upgraded or improved it), and before the oil discovery, the references are of the waters around Sirte not quite friendly to traffic (I couldn't find yet something about any port installation during the Italian time or during the north african campaign, so I guess fishing port style). So my question is, is there any potential for the Royal Engineers to make up some rough port facilities to facilitate shipping in supply, even if that's only using light coastal shipping from advanced ports at Tobruk and Benghazi? Or perhaps airstrips for airborne supplies? Overall, what are O'Connor's plans to supply a forward position at Sirte, if that's not asking too much hint/spoil of what's ahead?
EDIT: I imagine if O'Connor manages to improve his supply lines, airborne or seaborne, to Sirte well enough by the time Rommel kicks in, that might decide if Sirte is going Tobruk style or Bir Hakeim style.
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O'Connor wants to go to Tripoli, I doubt he can before the German and Italian reinforcements show up...
Does anybody know what was the garrison of Sirte at February 1941? Because regardless of what exactly happens next, we should cross it out of the Axis OOB.
O'Connor has the 4th Indian Division to dug in at either Sirte or El Agheila. Even if the British decide to send the 7th Australian to Greece along with the already earmarked 2nd New Zealand, they still have the 9th Australian Division as a reserve.
O'Connor has the 4th Indian Division to dug in at either Sirte or El Agheila. Even if the British decide to send the 7th Australian to Greece along with the already earmarked 2nd New Zealand, they still have the 9th Australian Division as a reserve.
I see that the Macedonian front is very well manned ittl and anchored on terrain that is not suitable for Panzers (although if the Germans break the frontlines the terrain of Southern Macedonia is good Panzer terrain) this makes the most likely front to break first the Thracian one..but breaking the Macedonian front offer more rewards i.e cutting the line pf retreat from the Thracian front and eliminating more enemy units.
Very interesting and well developed story Lascaris!!!
It seems now that the Balkans will be an important battlefield (more than OTL). Even though the german invasion starts earlier, it seems it reasonable to believe that this campaign will last longer, thus delaying the german attack to the Soviet Union. So what will Hitler decide? Will he focus on Greece till it us fully conquered (including Crete), even if he is forced to delay Operation Barbarossa, or he will choose to after some time to relay on his allies for Greece and focus on the Soviets?
Also what is going to be USSR responce? The possibility of backstabbing Hitler and launch a surprise attack is an option?
It seems now that the Balkans will be an important battlefield (more than OTL). Even though the german invasion starts earlier, it seems it reasonable to believe that this campaign will last longer, thus delaying the german attack to the Soviet Union. So what will Hitler decide? Will he focus on Greece till it us fully conquered (including Crete), even if he is forced to delay Operation Barbarossa, or he will choose to after some time to relay on his allies for Greece and focus on the Soviets?
Also what is going to be USSR responce? The possibility of backstabbing Hitler and launch a surprise attack is an option?
Stalin probably won't attack first. His armies are not at anything resembling acceptable readiness given multiple incidents reported of armored units having a lack of ammunition, or even guns, and that is only the tip of the iceberg of the issues they need to tackle.
That said. Who knows how much of that Stalin himself knows. If he's got too many yes-men around him he might go for it.
Still, I could see Hitler electing to hold off. After the fall of France, the Soviet Union is the Big One. Both from a military and a political standpoint. He's not yet so far gone that he won't want all the strength available for that attack.
Barbarossa and the Soviet Union is the main plot to the eyes of Hitler both on survival level, for the oil and the rest of resources , as well as the ideological one with the whole judeo-bolsevism nonsense that he had in mind. Now in their own calculations they could delay the invasion to next year cause they wouldn't have enough oil to kick them fast. Well OTL they didn't kick them fast enough either way but now to waste that precious petrol on a side quest in Greece is a whole other story. More than likely they hit hard till May to early June and then they live their allies to continue the fighting on the front with a very minimal German presence, something like 5 divisions max and some airforce.
To quote myself back in part 45:
Post that the Greeks already building PZL P.24 bought the design and adapted it for the Merlin III they are making under license, post the fall of Poland they also recruited Pulawski himself, along with Dabrowski. In effect view it as an OTL PZL 55 with Merlin. The name Ierax, is a direct translation of the Polish Jashtrab, both mean Hawk.
@Lascaris is the British brigade of Constantinople still in the Queen of Cities or has it been relocated to the Macedonian front? I can see the British surrenderring Constantinople to the Turks and pressing the Greeks hard to offer some territory to the Turks, although I can't imagine Dragoumis accepting that.