At Thies then at Kayes in Mali. I didn't know about the French gold there. After further checks, French gold there was only 750/790 tons out of 1100, and the remainder were the 70 tons of Polish gold reserves and 200 tons of Belgian reserves.
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
No one would deny that it was a magnificent city back then. And it had the advantage of being directly near the "frontline" and Egypt... which is also a problem: Beirut could be bombed by the Italians, Dakar was completely safe (except for long-range submarines).
Appendix Balkan Air Forces September 1940
A. Yugoslavia
1. Aircraft inventory
25 Rogozarski IK-3
24 Loire-Nieuport LN-161
80 Hawker Hurricane
12 Ikarus IK-2
30 Hawker Fury
27 PZL 37
83 Bristol Blenheim
42 Fairey Battle
6 Walrus
36 Lysander
120 Breguet 19
120 Potez 25
15 Rogozarski SIM-XIV-H
10 Do-16
262 trainer aircraft of various types
Total: 892
Fighters: 171
Bombers: 152
Army cooperation: 276
Naval cooperation: 31
2. Aircraft industry: Rogozarski, Ikarus, Zmaj aircraft factories. Locally designed IK-3 fighter under production, Hawker Hurricane, PZL 37, Bristol Blenheim locally produced under licence. Production hindered by lack of domestic engine production capacity.
3. Air defences: No radar available
80 Skoda vz37 80mm
132 Skoda vz28 80mm
328 FK M05/28 80mm (converted to static AA)
40 Skoda vz37 75mm
360 20mm and 15mm AA
B. Bulgaria
1. Aircraft inventory
10 Bf-109E
53 PZL P24 (most grounded from lack of spares)
78 Avia B.534
28 Do-17
32 Avia B.71 (SB-2)
38 PZL 43
60 Letov S.328
12 Do-11
12 MB.200
183 trainer aircraft of various types
Total: 474
Fighters: 141
Bombers: 122
Army cooperation: 60
Naval cooperation: 0
2. Aircraft industry: DAR aircraft factory. Building only trainer aircraft. Proposed local production of Avia B.135 stopped by Germany.
3. Air defences: No radar available
20 Flak 18 88mm
412 Solothurn & Oerlikon AA guns
C. Turkey
1. Aircraft inventory
60 Bf-109E (40 more under delivery)
48 PZL P24
25 FIAT CR.32
24 He-111
40 SM-79
40 Do-17
24 Do-22
16 Hs.126
10 Fi.156
25 He-50
28 FIAT BR.3
125 trainer aircraft of various types
Total: 465
Fighters: 133
Bombers: 104
Army cooperation: 79
Naval cooperation: 24
2. Aircraft industry: TOMTAS aircraft factory Kayseri. Licence production of Re.2000, Do-17, Hs.126 underway.
3. Air defences: No radar available
39 Flak 18 88mm
36 Bofors 75mm
66 Flak 36 37mm
108 Flak 30 20mm
D. Greece
1. Aircraft inventory
35 KEA Ierax I (TTL PZL P.53 [1])
40 Loire-Nieuport LN-161
90 PZL P.24F
18 PZL 37
24 Martin 167
30 Bristol Blenheim
82 KEA Khelidon II [2]
40 Breguet 19
24 Fairey IIIF
24 Avro Anson
200 trainer aircraft of various types
Total: 607
Fighters: 165
Bombers: 72
Army cooperation: 122
Naval cooperation: 48
2. Aircraft industry: KEA aircraft factory in Athens. Ierax I, PZL 37 locally produced. Limited local production of Merlin III engine under licence.
3. Air defences: Experimental radars built by National Technical University of Athens outside Athens and Smyrna [3]
96 Bofors 75mm
288 Bofors 40mm
4. HAF Order of Battle
11 Naval Squadron (Fairey IIIF)
12 Naval Squadron (Fairey IIIF)
13 Naval Squadron (Avro Anson)
14 Naval Squadron (Avro Anson)
15 Bomber Squadron (PZL 37 forming)
21 Fighter Squadron (Ierax I)
22 Fighter Squadron (Ierax I)
23 Fighter Squadron ( PZL P.24)
24 Fighter Squadron (PZL P.24)
25 Fighter Squadron (PZL P.24)
26 Fighter Squadron (PZL P.24)
27 Fighter Squadron (PZL P.24)
28 Fighter Squadron (PZL P.24)
29 Fighter Squadron (LN-161)
30 Fighter Squadron (LN-161)
31 Bomber Squadron (Bristol Blenheim)
32 Bomber Squadron (Bristol Blenheim)
33 Bomber Squadron (PZL 37)
34 Bomber Squadron (Martin 167)
35 Bomber Squadron (Martin 167)
A Army Cooperation Squadron (Khelidon II)
B Army Cooperation Squadron (Breguet 19)
C Army Cooperation Squadron (Khelidon II)
D Army Cooperation Squadron (Breguet 19)
E Army Cooperation Squadron (Khelidon II)
Smyrna Army Cooperation Squadron (Khelidon II)
[1] OTL PZL.55 with 1030HP Merlin III engine 570 kph top speed, 2x Oerlikon FF 20mm, 4x Colt-Browning 7.7mm
[2] Army liaison roughly comparable to Heinkel Hs.126
[3] Historical
1. Aircraft inventory
25 Rogozarski IK-3
24 Loire-Nieuport LN-161
80 Hawker Hurricane
12 Ikarus IK-2
30 Hawker Fury
27 PZL 37
83 Bristol Blenheim
42 Fairey Battle
6 Walrus
36 Lysander
120 Breguet 19
120 Potez 25
15 Rogozarski SIM-XIV-H
10 Do-16
262 trainer aircraft of various types
Total: 892
Fighters: 171
Bombers: 152
Army cooperation: 276
Naval cooperation: 31
2. Aircraft industry: Rogozarski, Ikarus, Zmaj aircraft factories. Locally designed IK-3 fighter under production, Hawker Hurricane, PZL 37, Bristol Blenheim locally produced under licence. Production hindered by lack of domestic engine production capacity.
3. Air defences: No radar available
80 Skoda vz37 80mm
132 Skoda vz28 80mm
328 FK M05/28 80mm (converted to static AA)
40 Skoda vz37 75mm
360 20mm and 15mm AA
B. Bulgaria
1. Aircraft inventory
10 Bf-109E
53 PZL P24 (most grounded from lack of spares)
78 Avia B.534
28 Do-17
32 Avia B.71 (SB-2)
38 PZL 43
60 Letov S.328
12 Do-11
12 MB.200
183 trainer aircraft of various types
Total: 474
Fighters: 141
Bombers: 122
Army cooperation: 60
Naval cooperation: 0
2. Aircraft industry: DAR aircraft factory. Building only trainer aircraft. Proposed local production of Avia B.135 stopped by Germany.
3. Air defences: No radar available
20 Flak 18 88mm
412 Solothurn & Oerlikon AA guns
C. Turkey
1. Aircraft inventory
60 Bf-109E (40 more under delivery)
48 PZL P24
25 FIAT CR.32
24 He-111
40 SM-79
40 Do-17
24 Do-22
16 Hs.126
10 Fi.156
25 He-50
28 FIAT BR.3
125 trainer aircraft of various types
Total: 465
Fighters: 133
Bombers: 104
Army cooperation: 79
Naval cooperation: 24
2. Aircraft industry: TOMTAS aircraft factory Kayseri. Licence production of Re.2000, Do-17, Hs.126 underway.
3. Air defences: No radar available
39 Flak 18 88mm
36 Bofors 75mm
66 Flak 36 37mm
108 Flak 30 20mm
D. Greece
1. Aircraft inventory
35 KEA Ierax I (TTL PZL P.53 [1])
40 Loire-Nieuport LN-161
90 PZL P.24F
18 PZL 37
24 Martin 167
30 Bristol Blenheim
82 KEA Khelidon II [2]
40 Breguet 19
24 Fairey IIIF
24 Avro Anson
200 trainer aircraft of various types
Total: 607
Fighters: 165
Bombers: 72
Army cooperation: 122
Naval cooperation: 48
2. Aircraft industry: KEA aircraft factory in Athens. Ierax I, PZL 37 locally produced. Limited local production of Merlin III engine under licence.
3. Air defences: Experimental radars built by National Technical University of Athens outside Athens and Smyrna [3]
96 Bofors 75mm
288 Bofors 40mm
4. HAF Order of Battle
11 Naval Squadron (Fairey IIIF)
12 Naval Squadron (Fairey IIIF)
13 Naval Squadron (Avro Anson)
14 Naval Squadron (Avro Anson)
15 Bomber Squadron (PZL 37 forming)
21 Fighter Squadron (Ierax I)
22 Fighter Squadron (Ierax I)
23 Fighter Squadron ( PZL P.24)
24 Fighter Squadron (PZL P.24)
25 Fighter Squadron (PZL P.24)
26 Fighter Squadron (PZL P.24)
27 Fighter Squadron (PZL P.24)
28 Fighter Squadron (PZL P.24)
29 Fighter Squadron (LN-161)
30 Fighter Squadron (LN-161)
31 Bomber Squadron (Bristol Blenheim)
32 Bomber Squadron (Bristol Blenheim)
33 Bomber Squadron (PZL 37)
34 Bomber Squadron (Martin 167)
35 Bomber Squadron (Martin 167)
A Army Cooperation Squadron (Khelidon II)
B Army Cooperation Squadron (Breguet 19)
C Army Cooperation Squadron (Khelidon II)
D Army Cooperation Squadron (Breguet 19)
E Army Cooperation Squadron (Khelidon II)
Smyrna Army Cooperation Squadron (Khelidon II)
[1] OTL PZL.55 with 1030HP Merlin III engine 570 kph top speed, 2x Oerlikon FF 20mm, 4x Colt-Browning 7.7mm
[2] Army liaison roughly comparable to Heinkel Hs.126
[3] Historical
The Greeks have kept around about every single large destroyer and cruiser they had in 1921... it helps with the numbers. Well having a much bigger economy that does not have to deal with an influx of destitute refuges numbering roughly 30% the population of the country before their arrival also helps.Wow did not realize the Greek fleet was this strong. I know nothing of WWII navies, but the comparison with the British fleet really helped making the point.
From the POV of the Greeks one could say Mussolini has woken up right that morning
Or to put it in some perspective that's about half a billion dollars in gold. About sufficient to purchase about 8,000 fighter aircraft or 200 destroyers.
I think Dakar is the logical choice, after all if you squint enough its Metropolitan France electing its own representatives in the national assembly. What I'm not certain is how much of an impact we are creating on French decolonization right at this if only due to a De Gaulle that is bound to be even more influential in 1945-46.
By this quote you mean the experiments by Professor Pavlos Santorinis? Unfortunately, I could find mostly Greek sources about these experiments, the most serious reference is this book by the National Technical University of Athens (NTUA) for the celebrations its 170 years. The article about the experiments of Professor Santorinis is in pages 163-167 (in printed form).
About the Balkan airforces, Yugoslavia seems to be the strongest one with Greece a little behind. The HAF bomber force is a little weak though.
Appendix Hellenic Navy September 1940
A. Battleships
Salamis class (1935)
Units: 1 (Salamis)
Displacement: 27,500t
Armament: 6x16in, 16x120mm AA, 16x40mm AA
Protection: 14in belt, 6in deck
Speed: 28kts
Small battleship designed and built by Vickers, based off the Project 892 design, to counter Turkish armoured ships
B. Cruisers
Lemnos class (1938)
Units: 2 (Lemnos, Helli)
Displacement: 10,656t
Armament: 9x8in, 12x5in DP guns, 12x40mm AA
Protection: 5in belt, 3.15in deck
Speed: 32.5 kts
A pair of heavy cruisers originally planned in the mid 1920s as replacements for the two pre-dreadnoughts in Greek service, the ordered was delayed to 1935 due to the need to build Salamis. Ordered from US yards in 1935 after Britain refused the order. Design derived from the US Brooklyn class but with additional AA guns taking the place of the aircraft facilities.
Averof class (1911)
Units: 1 (Averof)
Displacement: 10,200t
Armament: 4x9.2in, 8x7.6in, 12x3in AA, 6x40mm AA
Protection: 8in belt, 3in deck (post modernization)
Speed: 26 kts (post modernization)
Major modernization 1925-27, with new fire control, bulging, new oil fired machinery and improved horizontal protection
Katsonis class (1915/1922)
Units: 2
Displacement: 5,200t
Armament: 6x5in DP guns, 8x40mm
Protection: 2in belt, 1.5in deck
Speed: 26.5kts
Originally ordered in 1914, taken over by the RN and sold back to Greece in 1920. Plans to replace them frozen due to world crisis instead ships locally converted to anti-aircraft cruisers 1938-39, with US guns and their 5.5in guns used for coastal defences.
C. Destroyers
Themistoklis class (1939)
Units: 2 (Themistoklis, Miaoulis)
Displacement: 3,205t
Armament: 6x5in DP guns, 8x40mm 16x21in TT
Speed: 40kts
A pair of very large destroyers or small light cruisers built in Britain, deriving from the admiralty's L90 design but with US 5/38 guns in place of the 5,25in of the original British design as the latter were unavailable. Reduction in weight
Sfendoni class (1937)
Units: 6 (Sfendoni, Niki, Aspis, Velos, Thyella, Logchi)
Displacement: 1360t
Armament: 4x5in DP, 4x40mm AA, 8x21in TT
Speed: 36kts
H class destroyers, locally built in Greece with American armament as British industry could not deliver the originally intended Vickers guns.
Hydra class (1928)
Units: 6
Displacement: 1340t
Armament: 4x4.7in, 4x40mm AA, 8x21in TT
Speed: 36kts
British designed ships similar to the Royal Navy's A class destroyers and the Dutch Admiralen class
Aetos class (1912)
Units: 4 (Aetos, Ierax, Panthir, Leon)
Displacement: 1050t
Armament: 4x4in, 4x40mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 32kts
Thoroughly modernized in 1925 with new oil fired machinery and fire control.
Kriti class (1919/21)
Units: 6 (Kriti, Lesvos, Chios, Samos, Doxa, Keraunos)
Displacement: 1075t
Armament: 3x4in, 2x40mm, 4x21in TT
Speed: 36kts
Admiralty S class destroyers sold to Greece in 1920
D. Submarines
Poseidon class (1935)
Units: 6 (Pipinos, Matrozos, Aphitriti, Poseidon, Okeanos, Pontos)
Displacement: 670/960t
Armament: 6x21in TT, 1x3in, 1x40mm AA
Speed:15/10kts
S class submarines build either in Britain or locally.
Glaukos class (1927)
Units: 6 (Papanikolis, Glaukos, Proteus, Nereus, Triton, Triaina)
Displacement: 730/960t
Armament: 8x21in TT, 1x100mm, 1x40mm AA
Speed: 14/9.5kts
French built submarines, ordered in the 1920s
Salamis class (1935)
Units: 1 (Salamis)
Displacement: 27,500t
Armament: 6x16in, 16x120mm AA, 16x40mm AA
Protection: 14in belt, 6in deck
Speed: 28kts
Small battleship designed and built by Vickers, based off the Project 892 design, to counter Turkish armoured ships
B. Cruisers
Lemnos class (1938)
Units: 2 (Lemnos, Helli)
Displacement: 10,656t
Armament: 9x8in, 12x5in DP guns, 12x40mm AA
Protection: 5in belt, 3.15in deck
Speed: 32.5 kts
A pair of heavy cruisers originally planned in the mid 1920s as replacements for the two pre-dreadnoughts in Greek service, the ordered was delayed to 1935 due to the need to build Salamis. Ordered from US yards in 1935 after Britain refused the order. Design derived from the US Brooklyn class but with additional AA guns taking the place of the aircraft facilities.
Averof class (1911)
Units: 1 (Averof)
Displacement: 10,200t
Armament: 4x9.2in, 8x7.6in, 12x3in AA, 6x40mm AA
Protection: 8in belt, 3in deck (post modernization)
Speed: 26 kts (post modernization)
Major modernization 1925-27, with new fire control, bulging, new oil fired machinery and improved horizontal protection
Katsonis class (1915/1922)
Units: 2
Displacement: 5,200t
Armament: 6x5in DP guns, 8x40mm
Protection: 2in belt, 1.5in deck
Speed: 26.5kts
Originally ordered in 1914, taken over by the RN and sold back to Greece in 1920. Plans to replace them frozen due to world crisis instead ships locally converted to anti-aircraft cruisers 1938-39, with US guns and their 5.5in guns used for coastal defences.
C. Destroyers
Themistoklis class (1939)
Units: 2 (Themistoklis, Miaoulis)
Displacement: 3,205t
Armament: 6x5in DP guns, 8x40mm 16x21in TT
Speed: 40kts
A pair of very large destroyers or small light cruisers built in Britain, deriving from the admiralty's L90 design but with US 5/38 guns in place of the 5,25in of the original British design as the latter were unavailable. Reduction in weight
Sfendoni class (1937)
Units: 6 (Sfendoni, Niki, Aspis, Velos, Thyella, Logchi)
Displacement: 1360t
Armament: 4x5in DP, 4x40mm AA, 8x21in TT
Speed: 36kts
H class destroyers, locally built in Greece with American armament as British industry could not deliver the originally intended Vickers guns.
Hydra class (1928)
Units: 6
Displacement: 1340t
Armament: 4x4.7in, 4x40mm AA, 8x21in TT
Speed: 36kts
British designed ships similar to the Royal Navy's A class destroyers and the Dutch Admiralen class
Aetos class (1912)
Units: 4 (Aetos, Ierax, Panthir, Leon)
Displacement: 1050t
Armament: 4x4in, 4x40mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 32kts
Thoroughly modernized in 1925 with new oil fired machinery and fire control.
Kriti class (1919/21)
Units: 6 (Kriti, Lesvos, Chios, Samos, Doxa, Keraunos)
Displacement: 1075t
Armament: 3x4in, 2x40mm, 4x21in TT
Speed: 36kts
Admiralty S class destroyers sold to Greece in 1920
D. Submarines
Poseidon class (1935)
Units: 6 (Pipinos, Matrozos, Aphitriti, Poseidon, Okeanos, Pontos)
Displacement: 670/960t
Armament: 6x21in TT, 1x3in, 1x40mm AA
Speed:15/10kts
S class submarines build either in Britain or locally.
Glaukos class (1927)
Units: 6 (Papanikolis, Glaukos, Proteus, Nereus, Triton, Triaina)
Displacement: 730/960t
Armament: 8x21in TT, 1x100mm, 1x40mm AA
Speed: 14/9.5kts
French built submarines, ordered in the 1920s
A Brooklyn-derived heavy cruiser would basically just be Wichita, right? Wichita was laid down in late 1935 and commissioned in early 1939.
French Gold In World War II
This story is about one of the world’s largest gold hoards stored in one of the largest most secure vaults ever built. The French stored their 2,500 tons of gold in their secure underground vault in Paris. When the Germans began their offensive, the French started to remove its gold as a precaution.
www.gold-eagle.com
A pretty good article about the French gold
Unfortunately too much hype has gone to the experiments and the rest of Santorinis work, enough that I frankly doubted his radar experiments had even taken place. Since I am an electrical engineer myself, I just went after the publications in the library of the Technical Chamber of Greece, it's available online. And there is a publication from Santorinis himself in 1945 or 46, can't remember the exact year where the man describes in detail both the experiments and the trouble they had building the actual electronics. Short verdict, it was there and the effort was reasonably advanced at the time.
All involved have whatever they can build locally and what they can import. The Yugoslavs had certainly the most advanced aeronautical industry their weak spot was engine manufacture. Post that since the French mostly have no bombers to export the Yugoslavs and particularly the Greeks end up deficient...
Ayup. It's effectively a Wichita, with the 5in belt of Brouklyn and somewhat heavier deck armour, being in the Mediterranean with the Italian air force around the Greeks are a bit paranoid about air attack...
Which corps where called up for mobilization? I expect the asia Minor corp to mobilized lest the Turks get some funny ideas
Appendix Turkish Navy September 1940
A. Battleships
Fatih class (1933)
Units: 1 (Fatih Sultan Mehmet)
Displacement: 11,850t
Armament: 6x283mm, 12x120mm, 6x37mm AA
Protection: 200mm belt, 70mm deck
Speed: 29kts
An Italian built and designed pocket battleship, inspired by the German panzerschiffe, Fatih's construction triggered the building of the Greek Salamis which in turn caused an Italian response, precipitating the renewed naval race between France and Italy. Fatih itself even though inferior to Salamis is seen as a good investment in Turkey, if anything the Greeks had to spend over three times as much on Salamis.
Barbaros class (1929)
Units: 1 (Barbaros)
Displacement: 7,700t
Armament: 4x283mm, 12x120mm, 6x37mm AA
Protection: 200mm belt, 70mm deck
Speed: 25kts
Swedish designed coastal battleship, built in 1927-29 at the Dutch Wilton-Fijenoord shipyards for the Turkish navy, the ship used a pair of 283mm mountings left behind after the battlecruiser Sultan Selim Yavuz had to be dismantled at the end of the war, in order to reduce construction costs. Part of a larger order of Dutch built Swedish designed warships. Plans for a second unit were cancelled in favour of construction of Fatih.
B. Cruisers
Yavuz class (1940)
Units: 1 (Yavuz Sultan Selim)
Displacement: 4,500t
Armament: 6x152mm, 6x100mm, 8x37mm AA, 6x21in TT
Protection: 52mm belt, 25mm deck
Speed: 37kts
A small cruiser design offered by OTO and taken up by the TDK, its design clearly reflects Italian doctrine combining high speed and powerful armament for its size with very little armour.
Turgut Reis class (1931/1940)
Units: 1 (Turgut Reis)
Displacement: 5,110t
Armament: 8x152mm, 6x100mm, 8x37mm AA, 4x21in TT
Protection: 24mm belt, 20mm deck
Speed: 37kts
The former Alberto Da Guissano, transferred to Turkey in early 1940.
C. Destroyers
Zafer class (1929)
Units: 8 (Zafer, Adatepe, Demirhisar, Sultanhisar, Sivrihisar, Muavenet, Gayret, Gelibolu)
Displacement: 974t
Armament: 3x120mm, 2x40mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 36kts
Swedish Ehrenskold class destroyers built between 1929-1934 by the Dutch Wilton-Fijenoord shipyards for the Turkish navy.
Yildirim class (1932/1940)
Units: 4 (Yildirim, Alp Arslan, Piyale pasa, Kilic Ali pasa)
Displacement: 1400t
Armament: 4x120mm, 2x30mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 36kts
Italian Dardo class destroyers, transferred to Turkey early 1940
D. Submarines
Gur class (1934)
Units: 1 (Gur)
Displacement: 755/965t
Armament: 1x105mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 19.7/8.5kts
German submarine built in Spain and bought by Turkey when she renounced treaty limitations
Saldiray class (1936)
Units: 2 (Saldiray, Atilay)
Displacement: 780/1000t
Armament: 1x100mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 14/8kts
A pair of submarines originally ordered by Portugal in Italian yards and bought by Turkey when Portugal could not pay them.
Yildiray class (1937)
Units: 7 (Yildiray, Batiray, Oruc Reis, Preveze, Cerbe, Canakkale, Hizir Reis )
Displacement: 680/844t
Armament: 1x100mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 14/7.5kts
Adua class submarines 3 bought in March 1937 when already building for the Regia Marina, four more ordered in 1939 and delivered in the summer of 1940 despite the declaration of war by Italy.
Murat Reis class (1939)
Units: 2 (Murat Reis, Burak Reis)
Displacement: 254/303t
Armament: 3x21in TT
Speed: 13/6.9kts
A pair of German Type II coastal submarines, bought under the Turkish-German clearing
Uluc Ali Reis class (1939)
Units: 2 (Uluc Ali Reis, Piri Reis)
Displacement: 934/1210t
Armament: 1x105mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 20/9kts
A pair of large German submarines a third ship was taken over by Germany in September 1939
Fatih class (1933)
Units: 1 (Fatih Sultan Mehmet)
Displacement: 11,850t
Armament: 6x283mm, 12x120mm, 6x37mm AA
Protection: 200mm belt, 70mm deck
Speed: 29kts
An Italian built and designed pocket battleship, inspired by the German panzerschiffe, Fatih's construction triggered the building of the Greek Salamis which in turn caused an Italian response, precipitating the renewed naval race between France and Italy. Fatih itself even though inferior to Salamis is seen as a good investment in Turkey, if anything the Greeks had to spend over three times as much on Salamis.
Barbaros class (1929)
Units: 1 (Barbaros)
Displacement: 7,700t
Armament: 4x283mm, 12x120mm, 6x37mm AA
Protection: 200mm belt, 70mm deck
Speed: 25kts
Swedish designed coastal battleship, built in 1927-29 at the Dutch Wilton-Fijenoord shipyards for the Turkish navy, the ship used a pair of 283mm mountings left behind after the battlecruiser Sultan Selim Yavuz had to be dismantled at the end of the war, in order to reduce construction costs. Part of a larger order of Dutch built Swedish designed warships. Plans for a second unit were cancelled in favour of construction of Fatih.
B. Cruisers
Yavuz class (1940)
Units: 1 (Yavuz Sultan Selim)
Displacement: 4,500t
Armament: 6x152mm, 6x100mm, 8x37mm AA, 6x21in TT
Protection: 52mm belt, 25mm deck
Speed: 37kts
A small cruiser design offered by OTO and taken up by the TDK, its design clearly reflects Italian doctrine combining high speed and powerful armament for its size with very little armour.
Turgut Reis class (1931/1940)
Units: 1 (Turgut Reis)
Displacement: 5,110t
Armament: 8x152mm, 6x100mm, 8x37mm AA, 4x21in TT
Protection: 24mm belt, 20mm deck
Speed: 37kts
The former Alberto Da Guissano, transferred to Turkey in early 1940.
C. Destroyers
Zafer class (1929)
Units: 8 (Zafer, Adatepe, Demirhisar, Sultanhisar, Sivrihisar, Muavenet, Gayret, Gelibolu)
Displacement: 974t
Armament: 3x120mm, 2x40mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 36kts
Swedish Ehrenskold class destroyers built between 1929-1934 by the Dutch Wilton-Fijenoord shipyards for the Turkish navy.
Yildirim class (1932/1940)
Units: 4 (Yildirim, Alp Arslan, Piyale pasa, Kilic Ali pasa)
Displacement: 1400t
Armament: 4x120mm, 2x30mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 36kts
Italian Dardo class destroyers, transferred to Turkey early 1940
D. Submarines
Gur class (1934)
Units: 1 (Gur)
Displacement: 755/965t
Armament: 1x105mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 19.7/8.5kts
German submarine built in Spain and bought by Turkey when she renounced treaty limitations
Saldiray class (1936)
Units: 2 (Saldiray, Atilay)
Displacement: 780/1000t
Armament: 1x100mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 14/8kts
A pair of submarines originally ordered by Portugal in Italian yards and bought by Turkey when Portugal could not pay them.
Yildiray class (1937)
Units: 7 (Yildiray, Batiray, Oruc Reis, Preveze, Cerbe, Canakkale, Hizir Reis )
Displacement: 680/844t
Armament: 1x100mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 14/7.5kts
Adua class submarines 3 bought in March 1937 when already building for the Regia Marina, four more ordered in 1939 and delivered in the summer of 1940 despite the declaration of war by Italy.
Murat Reis class (1939)
Units: 2 (Murat Reis, Burak Reis)
Displacement: 254/303t
Armament: 3x21in TT
Speed: 13/6.9kts
A pair of German Type II coastal submarines, bought under the Turkish-German clearing
Uluc Ali Reis class (1939)
Units: 2 (Uluc Ali Reis, Piri Reis)
Displacement: 934/1210t
Armament: 1x105mm, 6x21in TT
Speed: 20/9kts
A pair of large German submarines a third ship was taken over by Germany in September 1939
Last edited:
Part 63 Of jackals and ultimatums
Ljubljana, September 23rd, 1940
The Italian army entered the city. Even fully mobilised the Yugoslav 7th army would had been outnumbered seven to one by the Italians. With all three of its assigned divisions still being mobilized it was not able to offer anything but token resistance. The Italians kept steadily advancing hampered more by supplies and transport than the still mobilizing Yugoslavs. What would happen when the Yugoslav mobilization was complete? That was a different question.
Kosovo and Montenegro, September 27th, 1940
The Invasion of the Italian 7th army had been stopped cold by the Yugoslav 3rd army which had even counterattacked and pushed the Italians back into Albania. Two out of four Yugoslav divisions in the 3rd army were still mobilizing when the war start, but against 150,000 Italians the odds were rather more manageable than in the north. And perhaps the fact that the 3rd army did not have a mostly Serb officer corps imposed upon Croatian and Slovene soldiery that for the past 20 years had had no reason to trust Belgrade was playing a role too.
Sidi Barrani, September 30th, 1940
The Italian invasion of Egypt had halted on its own two weeks earlier. Italian engineers were fast at work extending the Via Balbia into Egypt and Rome was receiving increasingly strenuous requests from Italo Balbo to reinforce Libya particularly with aircraft, tanks and motor transport but the engineers needed time while the reinforcements kept prioritizing Yugoslavia.
Zagreb, September 30th, 1940
The Italian army entered the city, to a somewhat mixed welcome by the Croatian population. The same day, the Italians long time puppet Ante Pavelic had proclaimed Croatia's independence from Yugoslavia. But the antipathy towards Belgrade was at least somewhat balanced over well founded suspicion of Italian claims on Dalmatia. For now at least the former was winning out, recent Serb concessions to Croatians had come too late following Alexander's dictatorsip and large numbers of Croatian reservists had just failed to show up, or had thrown down their arms and surrendered. Some, initially not many, had even outright switched sides outright. Heavy handed attempts by the mostly Serb high command to reverse this using loyal Serb units to enforce discipline and executing deserters had backfired leading whole Croatian units to mutiny against their Serb officers. Besides the Italians were winning. When faced with two evils why should someone put himself and his nation on the side of the losing one?
Budapest, October 3rd, 1940
Miklos Horthy, signed the order for the general mobilization of the Hungarian army. Yugoslavian resistance had notably stiffened in the last few days as the Italians had entered Bosnia but the Yugoslav first army group had been destroyed. The Yugoslavs had managed by now to establish a more of less contiguous front with their 2nd army and the general headquarters reserve that somewhat fortuitously as things had turned had been massed in Bosnia but that had meant stripping the Hungarian border of troops, while according to Hungarian intelligence the Italians still seriously outnumbered their opponent.
Ploesti, October 7th, 1940
German troops entered Romania to protect the oilfields. Italy had not been informed. Mussolini was not amused at the encroachment of what was considered by the Italians their own sphere of influence. The general staff was instructed to prepare for the conquest of Greece. Of course even Mussolini realized that Yugoslavia had to be finished off first.
Vojvodina, October 18th, 1940
In the past two weeks, the Italian advance into Yugoslavia had notably slowed, or in some cases stopped altogether as the Yugoslav mobilization had completed and the Italian advance had extended their lines of communication. The most notable loss had been Split, thanks to no small extend by Italian naval support. But now the Hungarian 2nd and 3rd armies crossed the border, bringing another half a million men into the fight...
Belgrade, October 24th, 1940
Italian and Hungarian troops entered the Yugoslav capital. Holding back the Hungarians as well as the Italians had proven too much for the Yugoslav army who was by now in full retreat although it retained its cohesion, not least thanks to the Yugoslav air force still holding her own. So far allied support to the Yugoslav war effort had been limited to a French fighter group from Constantinople that had been allowed by the Greeks to cross into Yugoslavia, and munitions shipped north from Thessaloniki.
Sofia, October 24th, 1940
King Boris had been so far reluctant to join the war. But if Yugoslavia was coming down, this was the time for Bulgaria to liberate her brethren in the west. Two times in 1913 and 1915-18, Bulgaria had tried, spending rivers of blood only to fail. Boris had no intention to see his country losing men again to no avail. But what better opportunity would even present itself with Bulgaria's allies dominating the continent, Russia allied to Germany and Yugoslavia already on its knees? And if the war extended to Greece... again what better opportunity to see the whole of Macedonia and Thrace finally liberated by the Bulgarian army? The general mobilization of the Bulgarian army was proclaimed.
Athens, October 25th, 1940
With Bulgaria mobilizing it was inevitable that Greece should also mobilize. Should it also join the war or hope, that the Italians after destroying Yugoslavia would leave it alone? Greece was already helping Yugoslavia in every possible way short of war. What were the chances that when the Yugoslav army retreated past the Greek border as it seemed entirely too likely to happen at the moment the Italians would not follow them over the border? The last thing Dragoumis intended to see was Greece turned into a battleground while he was watching idle as Constantine had done in 1915. But the stakes at hand were too big to be taken idly...
Sarajevo, October 26th, 1940
The Italians entered the city, destroying any remaining hopes the Yugoslav general staff might hold for a Bosnian redoubt. The only option left was retreating south and a renewed Macedonian front. But with a quarter million Italian soldiers in Albania, the only line of retread was down the Vardar which as it had been seen in 1915 was vulnerable to the Bulgarians. If at least a sliver of the national territory and the army were to be saved, Yugoslavia needed the Greeks to fend off Bulgaria. But the Greeks were understandably reluctant, particularly Dragoumis. The Yugoslav ambassador in Athens was ordered to repeat the 1915 order to cede Monastir to Greece if it joined the war. After all this was an offer likely to affect Dragoumis, with his background in the Macedonian struggle and who had publicly deplored the fate of the Greek-Vlach community in the town under Serb rule, more than it would ever affect the judgement of someone like Venizelos.
Rome, October 28th, 1940
There had been some reluctance in the Commando Supremo, but in the end it had been Mussolini's opinion that mattered. With Yugoslavia going down the Greeks would be given given the option to either cut off the Yugoslavs and make concessions to Italy and her allies or be invaded in turn. After all Italy had no reason to tolerate any more Greek support for the allies and the Yugoslavs. The 7th army was ordered to shift it's divisions to the Greek border, keeping on the defensive in the Yugoslav front, to be ready for the coming ultimatum.
Tirana, November 1st, 1940
The clerk did not quite know what a dead drop was. He just threw to the garbage a few copies of papers that should never find themselves in a garbage can as he had been told. The Albanian cleaner took out the garbage and he got his money. If the British wanted to pay for information about the army in Albania and its movements it was ok by him, it was not as if he could see how it was really useful to them. The DYPL [1] agent that actually run the operation might have a different opinion of course, Athens would very much want to know that the Italian 7th army was shifting to the Greek border "to support a final solution of the issues with Greece". His agency had been a relatively recent creation, Dragoumis when coming to power had taken the General State Security agency established back in 1926, had created out of it DYPL and DYEA [2] to handle intelligence and counter-intelligence respectively, but was very well funded and had inherited a pretty extensive information network in the Balkans. Pragmatically the Greek government did know its turn was coming. But proof hardly hurt...
Yugoslavia, November 6th, 1940
The Italian army captured Nis and reached the Bulgarian border at Vidin. It was the signal Bulgaria waited to invade Yugoslavia in turn. From then on events had moved with breakneck speed. Within hours first Yugoslavia had announced it was ceding the town of Monastir to Greece, then the Greek ambassador in Sofia had informed the Bulgarians that Greece was treaty bound to defend Yugoslavia in case of Bulgarian invasion, the Greek 1st and 2nd Cavalry divisions were already rushing north for Stip with four infantry divisions of the Greek C Army Corps following behind to close the approaches to Strumica to the Bulgarians. War had not been quite declared... yet. After all the Greeks might back down. Or the Italians stop and let a rump Yugoslavia north of the Greek border survive.
Athens, November 7th, 1940
Benito Mussolini had had enough with the Greeks over the last 18 years. His plan had been to clear the situation in a couple weeks when his army finished the conquest of Yugoslavia. The Greeks had not proven so accommodating and had rushed things. So be it. As he'd told his generals when questioning the prudence of an immediate invasion of Greece he'd rather be a Greek than an Italian fearing Greeks. Gracchi delivered the Italian ultimatum to Greece before dawn...
Appendix, Selected terms of Italian ultimatum to Greece November 7th, 1940
[1] Information Agency Directorate, Διεύθυνση Υπηρεσίας Πληροφοριών / Dieuthynsi Ypiresias Pliroforion in Greek.
[2] National Security Agency Directorate, Διεύθυνση Υπηρεσίας Εθνικής Ασφαλείας / Dieuthynsi Ypiresias Ethnikis Asfaleias
The Italian army entered the city. Even fully mobilised the Yugoslav 7th army would had been outnumbered seven to one by the Italians. With all three of its assigned divisions still being mobilized it was not able to offer anything but token resistance. The Italians kept steadily advancing hampered more by supplies and transport than the still mobilizing Yugoslavs. What would happen when the Yugoslav mobilization was complete? That was a different question.
Kosovo and Montenegro, September 27th, 1940
The Invasion of the Italian 7th army had been stopped cold by the Yugoslav 3rd army which had even counterattacked and pushed the Italians back into Albania. Two out of four Yugoslav divisions in the 3rd army were still mobilizing when the war start, but against 150,000 Italians the odds were rather more manageable than in the north. And perhaps the fact that the 3rd army did not have a mostly Serb officer corps imposed upon Croatian and Slovene soldiery that for the past 20 years had had no reason to trust Belgrade was playing a role too.
Sidi Barrani, September 30th, 1940
The Italian invasion of Egypt had halted on its own two weeks earlier. Italian engineers were fast at work extending the Via Balbia into Egypt and Rome was receiving increasingly strenuous requests from Italo Balbo to reinforce Libya particularly with aircraft, tanks and motor transport but the engineers needed time while the reinforcements kept prioritizing Yugoslavia.
Zagreb, September 30th, 1940
The Italian army entered the city, to a somewhat mixed welcome by the Croatian population. The same day, the Italians long time puppet Ante Pavelic had proclaimed Croatia's independence from Yugoslavia. But the antipathy towards Belgrade was at least somewhat balanced over well founded suspicion of Italian claims on Dalmatia. For now at least the former was winning out, recent Serb concessions to Croatians had come too late following Alexander's dictatorsip and large numbers of Croatian reservists had just failed to show up, or had thrown down their arms and surrendered. Some, initially not many, had even outright switched sides outright. Heavy handed attempts by the mostly Serb high command to reverse this using loyal Serb units to enforce discipline and executing deserters had backfired leading whole Croatian units to mutiny against their Serb officers. Besides the Italians were winning. When faced with two evils why should someone put himself and his nation on the side of the losing one?
Budapest, October 3rd, 1940
Miklos Horthy, signed the order for the general mobilization of the Hungarian army. Yugoslavian resistance had notably stiffened in the last few days as the Italians had entered Bosnia but the Yugoslav first army group had been destroyed. The Yugoslavs had managed by now to establish a more of less contiguous front with their 2nd army and the general headquarters reserve that somewhat fortuitously as things had turned had been massed in Bosnia but that had meant stripping the Hungarian border of troops, while according to Hungarian intelligence the Italians still seriously outnumbered their opponent.
Ploesti, October 7th, 1940
German troops entered Romania to protect the oilfields. Italy had not been informed. Mussolini was not amused at the encroachment of what was considered by the Italians their own sphere of influence. The general staff was instructed to prepare for the conquest of Greece. Of course even Mussolini realized that Yugoslavia had to be finished off first.
Vojvodina, October 18th, 1940
In the past two weeks, the Italian advance into Yugoslavia had notably slowed, or in some cases stopped altogether as the Yugoslav mobilization had completed and the Italian advance had extended their lines of communication. The most notable loss had been Split, thanks to no small extend by Italian naval support. But now the Hungarian 2nd and 3rd armies crossed the border, bringing another half a million men into the fight...
Belgrade, October 24th, 1940
Italian and Hungarian troops entered the Yugoslav capital. Holding back the Hungarians as well as the Italians had proven too much for the Yugoslav army who was by now in full retreat although it retained its cohesion, not least thanks to the Yugoslav air force still holding her own. So far allied support to the Yugoslav war effort had been limited to a French fighter group from Constantinople that had been allowed by the Greeks to cross into Yugoslavia, and munitions shipped north from Thessaloniki.
Sofia, October 24th, 1940
King Boris had been so far reluctant to join the war. But if Yugoslavia was coming down, this was the time for Bulgaria to liberate her brethren in the west. Two times in 1913 and 1915-18, Bulgaria had tried, spending rivers of blood only to fail. Boris had no intention to see his country losing men again to no avail. But what better opportunity would even present itself with Bulgaria's allies dominating the continent, Russia allied to Germany and Yugoslavia already on its knees? And if the war extended to Greece... again what better opportunity to see the whole of Macedonia and Thrace finally liberated by the Bulgarian army? The general mobilization of the Bulgarian army was proclaimed.
Athens, October 25th, 1940
With Bulgaria mobilizing it was inevitable that Greece should also mobilize. Should it also join the war or hope, that the Italians after destroying Yugoslavia would leave it alone? Greece was already helping Yugoslavia in every possible way short of war. What were the chances that when the Yugoslav army retreated past the Greek border as it seemed entirely too likely to happen at the moment the Italians would not follow them over the border? The last thing Dragoumis intended to see was Greece turned into a battleground while he was watching idle as Constantine had done in 1915. But the stakes at hand were too big to be taken idly...
Sarajevo, October 26th, 1940
The Italians entered the city, destroying any remaining hopes the Yugoslav general staff might hold for a Bosnian redoubt. The only option left was retreating south and a renewed Macedonian front. But with a quarter million Italian soldiers in Albania, the only line of retread was down the Vardar which as it had been seen in 1915 was vulnerable to the Bulgarians. If at least a sliver of the national territory and the army were to be saved, Yugoslavia needed the Greeks to fend off Bulgaria. But the Greeks were understandably reluctant, particularly Dragoumis. The Yugoslav ambassador in Athens was ordered to repeat the 1915 order to cede Monastir to Greece if it joined the war. After all this was an offer likely to affect Dragoumis, with his background in the Macedonian struggle and who had publicly deplored the fate of the Greek-Vlach community in the town under Serb rule, more than it would ever affect the judgement of someone like Venizelos.
Rome, October 28th, 1940
There had been some reluctance in the Commando Supremo, but in the end it had been Mussolini's opinion that mattered. With Yugoslavia going down the Greeks would be given given the option to either cut off the Yugoslavs and make concessions to Italy and her allies or be invaded in turn. After all Italy had no reason to tolerate any more Greek support for the allies and the Yugoslavs. The 7th army was ordered to shift it's divisions to the Greek border, keeping on the defensive in the Yugoslav front, to be ready for the coming ultimatum.
Tirana, November 1st, 1940
The clerk did not quite know what a dead drop was. He just threw to the garbage a few copies of papers that should never find themselves in a garbage can as he had been told. The Albanian cleaner took out the garbage and he got his money. If the British wanted to pay for information about the army in Albania and its movements it was ok by him, it was not as if he could see how it was really useful to them. The DYPL [1] agent that actually run the operation might have a different opinion of course, Athens would very much want to know that the Italian 7th army was shifting to the Greek border "to support a final solution of the issues with Greece". His agency had been a relatively recent creation, Dragoumis when coming to power had taken the General State Security agency established back in 1926, had created out of it DYPL and DYEA [2] to handle intelligence and counter-intelligence respectively, but was very well funded and had inherited a pretty extensive information network in the Balkans. Pragmatically the Greek government did know its turn was coming. But proof hardly hurt...
Yugoslavia, November 6th, 1940
The Italian army captured Nis and reached the Bulgarian border at Vidin. It was the signal Bulgaria waited to invade Yugoslavia in turn. From then on events had moved with breakneck speed. Within hours first Yugoslavia had announced it was ceding the town of Monastir to Greece, then the Greek ambassador in Sofia had informed the Bulgarians that Greece was treaty bound to defend Yugoslavia in case of Bulgarian invasion, the Greek 1st and 2nd Cavalry divisions were already rushing north for Stip with four infantry divisions of the Greek C Army Corps following behind to close the approaches to Strumica to the Bulgarians. War had not been quite declared... yet. After all the Greeks might back down. Or the Italians stop and let a rump Yugoslavia north of the Greek border survive.
Athens, November 7th, 1940
Benito Mussolini had had enough with the Greeks over the last 18 years. His plan had been to clear the situation in a couple weeks when his army finished the conquest of Yugoslavia. The Greeks had not proven so accommodating and had rushed things. So be it. As he'd told his generals when questioning the prudence of an immediate invasion of Greece he'd rather be a Greek than an Italian fearing Greeks. Gracchi delivered the Italian ultimatum to Greece before dawn...
Appendix, Selected terms of Italian ultimatum to Greece November 7th, 1940
- Greece to immediately demobilize her army, navy and air force under Italian supervision
- Greece to seal her border with Yugoslavia
- Greece to allow Italian and Bulgarian troops to enter the country and occupy strategically important points
- Greece to begin negotiations under Italian mediation with the Bulgarian and Turkish governments over the return to them of territories taken over by Greece after WW1.
[1] Information Agency Directorate, Διεύθυνση Υπηρεσίας Πληροφοριών / Dieuthynsi Ypiresias Pliroforion in Greek.
[2] National Security Agency Directorate, Διεύθυνση Υπηρεσίας Εθνικής Ασφαλείας / Dieuthynsi Ypiresias Ethnikis Asfaleias
While we know that the greeks will say a big fat no i hope that dragoumis will paraphrase georgios karaskakis response to the letters calling him to make a treaty of the ruler of athens..i believe that is an appropriate response to the italian,bulgarians and the turks.
And so it begins...
It really is in character for Dragoumis to develop intelligence agencies and fund them generously. After, as stated by the author, the man was a spymaster during his youth.
@Lascaris, what is the condition of the 1st and 2nd Army Groups of the Yugoslav Army? Are there any units that have not disintegrated?
I guess the 3rd Army Group has suffered moderate casualties (it is on the defence behind mighty mountains) and basically intact. That would mean 8 divisions and a few other formations. The Greeks are rushing to save the 5th Independent Army of 4 infantry and 1 cavalry divisions. There are also 2 divisions of the general reserve in the lower Morava Valley. A total of 15 divisions can retreat and form a national redoubt. The Axis are not motorized, so it would be hard to bag these formations, not with the Greeks keeping the eastern flank open.
If the front is stabilized, how many divisions can the Italians support at the Balkan Front? I suspect we will soon see the Greeks descent against Valona and capturing it. According to the very well informed author the port capacities in Albania are
So, if they double the capacity of Duress and St John di Medua they can support 13 divisions in Albania. I suspect another 12 via the yugoslav railroad line to the south. That would be a total of 25 divisions. The rest in the Balkan Front they would have to be bulgarian ones. Well, in the asiatic front we know already.
@Lascaris how many divisions do the Bulgarians have? Is it fair to assume 10 infantry and 2 cavalry? How much artillery do they have?
It really is in character for Dragoumis to develop intelligence agencies and fund them generously. After, as stated by the author, the man was a spymaster during his youth.
@Lascaris, what is the condition of the 1st and 2nd Army Groups of the Yugoslav Army? Are there any units that have not disintegrated?
I guess the 3rd Army Group has suffered moderate casualties (it is on the defence behind mighty mountains) and basically intact. That would mean 8 divisions and a few other formations. The Greeks are rushing to save the 5th Independent Army of 4 infantry and 1 cavalry divisions. There are also 2 divisions of the general reserve in the lower Morava Valley. A total of 15 divisions can retreat and form a national redoubt. The Axis are not motorized, so it would be hard to bag these formations, not with the Greeks keeping the eastern flank open.
If the front is stabilized, how many divisions can the Italians support at the Balkan Front? I suspect we will soon see the Greeks descent against Valona and capturing it. According to the very well informed author the port capacities in Albania are
So, if they double the capacity of Duress and St John di Medua they can support 13 divisions in Albania. I suspect another 12 via the yugoslav railroad line to the south. That would be a total of 25 divisions. The rest in the Balkan Front they would have to be bulgarian ones. Well, in the asiatic front we know already.
@Lascaris how many divisions do the Bulgarians have? Is it fair to assume 10 infantry and 2 cavalry? How much artillery do they have?
Methinks Greece will be bloodier for all sides TTL, but especially for the Axis...
Things I predict: Turkey will be under Communist rule, and Constantinople (Istanbul) will be a center of intrigue in TTL's Cold War (assuming it's not divided like Berlin was)…
And Greece's response to Italy: How about hell no!!!
Things I predict: Turkey will be under Communist rule, and Constantinople (Istanbul) will be a center of intrigue in TTL's Cold War (assuming it's not divided like Berlin was)…
And Greece's response to Italy: How about hell no!!!
Italy seems like it will be in worse shape in some ways, better in others. Worse in the sense that they've no doubt used a lot of their supplies/reserves, their vehicles/soldiers will be more worn out. Better in the sense their soldiers/formations etc might be a bit more used to combat by the time the Greeks get their turn