Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Fairly new compared to anything else they had, ntg but saves some money.
What about the Georgios-Averof, Niki-class destroyers and Thyella-class destroyers
formion
Banned
Georgios "Uncle George" Averof will remain in commission for ever. When I say forever I mean it: hopefully at least another couple of centuries.
Niki and Thyella class destroyers are of almost no value and are in a bad condition. If the blockade of Samsun has ended, they should be decommissioned.
Averof had some value and is iconic, the old destroyers are still handy in patrolling Greece's lengthy coast
formion
Banned
@Lascaris does the armenian Nagorno-Karabakh include the Lachin corridor to connect it with Armenia proper?
Also an armenian Kars will help somewhat the Armenian SSR, as the Armenians had worked hard for decades to turn Kars into a productive even if tiny breadbasket.
This very useful paper, also demonstrates the value of East Thrace as a breadbasket for Interwar Turkey. The south Marmara shore constituted a smaller grain-surplus region.
Also an armenian Kars will help somewhat the Armenian SSR, as the Armenians had worked hard for decades to turn Kars into a productive even if tiny breadbasket.
This very useful paper, also demonstrates the value of East Thrace as a breadbasket for Interwar Turkey. The south Marmara shore constituted a smaller grain-surplus region.
To horrify @formion the interesting hurdle TTL probably much more than OTL is getting Lucky Uncle George serving into 1939, instead of being replaced by a newer ship. Averof has advantages and disadvantages here. On the up side it's only 10 years old in 1921, very well armoured with 200mm belt and 40mm deck Averof's belt was likely invulnerable to 8in fire and had deck armour as good as any heavy cruiser in the 1920s. And carries a heavy punch for a cruiser with 4x9.2in and 8x7.6 inch. For every practical purpose it is a small semi-dreadnoought. On the down side it IS a small semi dreadnought. At 23.5 kts it is too slow by cruiser norms of the era, burns only coal and still uses triple expansion engines.
This is my take for how the modernization proposed by the Webb naval mission would had looked around 1925. That would had cost around 260,000 pounds.
Alternate warships of nations
Good point about the dimensions of the barbette, plus the historic teething troubles for the four gun turrets in general. If anything, I'd say the limit would be a situation like the Brooklyn class cruisers (or the Nelson and Rodney). I'd have to crunch the numbers, but I don't think it'd be...
www.alternatehistory.com
Anything up to the whole Kurdistani oblast of OTL will be part of Armenia here, possibly as an autonomous SSR. And Nakhchivan is likely an ASSR within Armenia as well. Why? Narimanov had "gifted" this to Armenia in OTL, a sweetener for the Soviet "liberation" saying the borders did not exist between fraternal Soviet people. Then this was countermanded in turn to sweeten the Turks in the treaty of Moscow and the subsequent treaty of Kars, article 5 of the latter was specifically saying that
"The Turkish Government and the Soviet Governments of Armenia and Azerbaijan are agreed that the region of Nakhchivan, within the limits specified by Annex III to the present Treaty, constitutes an autonomous territory under the protection of Azerbaijan."
But TTL the Soviets have a vested interest after the Kars war, to deny Turkey has any right to have a say on what happens within the Soviet border, particularly since they expect a hostile monarchist regime to take over and are acting accordingly. Which means you don't leave Nakhchivan as an Azeri ASSR...
formion
Banned
Oh well, Uncle George doesn't need to be in actual service, just not to be decommissioned and be kept around. The important thing is to keep him afloat and not scrapped.
As long as you build a cruiser named Kountouriotis to wreak havoc , I will be fine!
Great news for Armenians as well! In OTL 1923 there were 900k Armenians in Soviet Armenia and 300k in the rest of the Caucasus, of whom 100k were refugees. Now they have enough space to settle and rebuild their lives.
First thing first Greece needs to look at its economy and the population exchange. It needs to have fewer muslim Turks but it also needs to deny them from Turkey as they are potential soldiers against Greece and of course a labour force for Turkey. So the exchange needs to be as balanced as possible. As for more warships now its not the time for that. They need to build their own navy yards so they can produce their own ships. And balance the economy as I said being careful with the whole mess that the war has brought. They have gained some of the best ,if not the best, farmlands of Turkey and that cripples the enemy while boosting them IF they are used correctly.
As for Turkey they had almost 13 million population OTL in 1923 I believe with this turn of events they might have 1-2 million lees ,not through deaths but rather split to Syria, which is French, Mentese ,Karia and Lycia which are Italian and the rest which will be Greek. That is a big blow to them as well as losing Aydin eyalet and Thrace. I see them struggling a lot ITTL to catch up to Greece industrially and with the whole debt that they are bound to have the Great depression might hit them extra hard,not that Greece won't be affected as they are going to be more connected to global trade. An alliance between Turkey and Italy though could be a huge threat to Greece. Also Bulgaria is a wild card here and probably will join that alliance as Greece has a lot of claimed Bulgarian land.
Interesting times ahead.
As for Turkey they had almost 13 million population OTL in 1923 I believe with this turn of events they might have 1-2 million lees ,not through deaths but rather split to Syria, which is French, Mentese ,Karia and Lycia which are Italian and the rest which will be Greek. That is a big blow to them as well as losing Aydin eyalet and Thrace. I see them struggling a lot ITTL to catch up to Greece industrially and with the whole debt that they are bound to have the Great depression might hit them extra hard,not that Greece won't be affected as they are going to be more connected to global trade. An alliance between Turkey and Italy though could be a huge threat to Greece. Also Bulgaria is a wild card here and probably will join that alliance as Greece has a lot of claimed Bulgarian land.
Interesting times ahead.
formion
Banned
I disagree for a number of reasons. Please bear with me.
First of all, there will be still a lot of christian refugees. The Pontic Greeks, Bithynian Greeks (Proussalides), Pisidian Greeks (Spartalides), Cappadocians, Karamanlides, the 15-20k Cilician Greeks. Moreover, Greece has a moral obligation towards the Armenians: the French in OTL left them destitute in Syria. Don't forget that there are tens of thousands more Armenians in Anatolia, and they will be massacred if Greece doesn't take them. It is possible that Greece may end up taking 200k more Armenian refugees compared to OTL (or perhaps even a bit more than that). To them, add the various Russian Greeks who may very well be 150-200k instead of the OTL 50k.
Moreover, no 1922 disaster, means that tens of thousands of western Anatolian Greeks who were massacred in August-September 1922, now live. Not having the OTL misery of an absulute massive refugee wave, it means that the Anatolian Greeks won't die en masse by diseases or migrate at once in Egypt and the Americas. Kitromilides states that 75k refugees died in Greece due to epidemics and 66k migrated almost immediately. All these people now live and reside in the expanded greek state.
In total, if we add up all the Ottoman Greeks, Armenians and Russian Greeks we still may end up with a figure of 700-800k refugees (200k Armenians, 280k Pontic, 20k Prussa, Cappadocians and the rest of Anatolian Greeks 100k, 150-200k Russian Greeks). To that, add the OTL refugees from Bulgaria, according to the voluntary exchange and you end up with a respectable number. These people need empty land: the state won't bankrupt itself to get loans in order to set up new towns from scratch as in OTL.
Population Exchange in Greek Macedonia
Following the defeat of the Greek Army in 1922 by nationalist Turkish forces, the Convention of Lausanne in 1923 specified the first compulsory exchange of populations ratified by an international organization. The arrival in Greece of over 1.2 million refugees and their settlement proved to be...
books.google.com
Another thing is that while fewer compared to OTL, Venizelos will have to decide where to settle them. I sincerely doubt that any refugees at all will be settled in Athens, southern Greece or the islands.
Last but not least, when it came to Asiatic Greece, it is well known that Venizelos wanted to settle landless Greeks from Central Greece and the Peloponnese. These tens of thousands of people from Old Greece, that in OTL would migrate to USA, Egypt and Argentina, they can move now to Smyrna.
As I see it, Venizelos would have wanted to keep and integrate the Turkocretans, Ioannina muslims (Turkoyianiotes) and the Vallahades, along with other groups such as Pomaks and Circassians. I doubt the rest would stay.
From a Maciavelian point of view - and Venizelos was definitely machiavelian, a greater surge of muslim refugees in Anatolia, while the best agricultural land is lost, would destabilize the turkish state. Rather than a boon, it would be an economic and social disaster. In OTL, the Kemalists messed up the rellocation, even though they had more free land that they knew what to do with. The cost of settling and the lack of open land would be a grave blow. Venizelos at the end of the war would want a couple of decades to absorb the new territories and expand the economy before he has to face another war: have a million more muslims moving eastwards and he gets his breathing space.
@formion Oh sorry I wasn't clear enough. The exchange needs to happen 1000% to take all the Greeks and Armenians in, I'm just trying to say that they need to give less muslims to the Turks! I totally agree with you on the transfer of disloyal or potentially disloyal Muslims away but as you said the ones that can be integrated can stay. Also keeping emigration down is a true bonus here for Greece.Also with all these new refugees now they can be settled in Macedonia which will limit the Slav factor there closer to OTL levels.
On the Turkish refugees although I see your point I still see them as a true threat if not for the decade to come at WW2 and beyond the population growth of Turkey will skyrocket, although a lot of them will leave for other countries. Even if the mess up the resettlement they will get that manpower which is still better than nothing and the social shock will heal as it was in Greece as well OTL. Even if it take 15 years to heal that is enough to bother Greece in a Quadruple Invasion in WW2, Italy, Bulgaria,Turkey and Germany and that is a recipe for absolute disaster. To be clear I mean from almost 2 million Turks in Greek zone now about 500k to stay or something like that not half of them or anything like that just enough.
EDIT: Can we have a map of the Eastern and Southern borders of Turkey with USSR(Armenia, Georgia) ,Iraq(UK) and Syria(France)? Especially with France I have a curiosity of were the lines were drawn ITTL.
On the Turkish refugees although I see your point I still see them as a true threat if not for the decade to come at WW2 and beyond the population growth of Turkey will skyrocket, although a lot of them will leave for other countries. Even if the mess up the resettlement they will get that manpower which is still better than nothing and the social shock will heal as it was in Greece as well OTL. Even if it take 15 years to heal that is enough to bother Greece in a Quadruple Invasion in WW2, Italy, Bulgaria,Turkey and Germany and that is a recipe for absolute disaster. To be clear I mean from almost 2 million Turks in Greek zone now about 500k to stay or something like that not half of them or anything like that just enough.
EDIT: Can we have a map of the Eastern and Southern borders of Turkey with USSR(Armenia, Georgia) ,Iraq(UK) and Syria(France)? Especially with France I have a curiosity of were the lines were drawn ITTL.
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@goumaister is right about the necessity of creating Greek naval military yards. The first modern state-owned shipyard opened in March 1939 in Skaramangas and it had been scheduled to built 2 class "G" destroyers (2 more, Vasilissa Olga D-15 and Vasileus Georgios D-14 had been bought from UK.) However the outbreak of WW2 stopped the construction.
In TTL, with Greece having a stronger economy, I hope that the Skaramangas shipyards will be created at least 15 years earlier.
In TTL, with Greece having a stronger economy, I hope that the Skaramangas shipyards will be created at least 15 years earlier.
formion
Banned
If anything, I think the French would get the Baghdad railway on their side of the border. It would be of great strategic value, to connect Alexandretta with Mesopotamia and have also the ability to project power towards Anatolia. Moreoever, Antep is still in french hands. So, lets zoom in this detailed map and speculate!
A plausible reasonable border would have been from Dortyol across the mountains to Islahiye, to the ridge juuust north of Antep, then a sliver of land just north of the railroad to put it in french hands. Urfa would remain turkish, while Mardin and Nusaybin will be syrian. What do you think?
@formion After a small research of what the French had in possession OTL in South Turkey I see that they still held Adana and Tarsus but have lost Maras. Maybe they could keep that area as it is more fertile with a friendlier Armenian population, part of I mean cause Turks were still the majority. If not Cilicia then they would need to persuade the Turks to give said railway which they still controlled , not hard If you see the Turkish military situation, but they still could say no or demand something in return and in France there would be no political will to fight there. Also in the railroad is indeed so close to the borders that the French could take it without any big opposition. So it is a question between Adana (the Cukurova area in the map) and Antep. I would prefer Adana but then we will have ugly borders 
Building up Skaramangas was part of the Kelly naval mission plans for the modernization of the Greek navy one Venizelos supported... Just as he supported the creation of an aircraft industry. Both are going to be happening much earlier and on a larger scale.
Then to give a spoiler the largest engine building factory of Smyrna belonged to the family of a certain youngster who became a famous car designer, creating an iconic British car in OTL. Just saying. 😇
@formion After a small research of what the French had in possession OTL in South Turkey I see that they still held Adana and Tarsus but have lost Maras. Maybe they could keep that area as it is more fertile with a friendlier Armenian population, part of I mean cause Turks were still the majority. If not Cilicia then they would need to persuade the Turks to give said railway which they still controlled , not hard If you see the Turkish military situation, but they still could say no or demand something in return and in France there would be no political will to fight there. Also in the railroad is indeed so close to the borders that the French could take it without any big opposition. So it is a question between Adana (the Cukurova area in the map) and Antep. I would prefer Adana but then we will have ugly borders
In OTL the French agreed to move the border by about 16 km south in October 1921, Which not incidentally put the railroad on the Turkish side of the border. Not here...
Also they retreated from Adana in 1922 so they still hold it. That's why I would prefer if they keep the Adana area over Gaziantep.
About my post on navy yards and not an armament campaign in 1922 , my thought process was that everything they buy now will be obsolete in 10 years so they better spend money on the infrastructure rather than warships. Also YEAH GREEK IKAROI (pilots) ARE COMING SOONER !!
