I would argue that Greece will try to get the northern bank of the Menderes/Meander river. The Meander valley was simply one of the richest and most productive regions of the Ottoman Empire.Wonder how much territory Greece gets ITTL...
Wonder how much territory Greece gets ITTL...
Area | Circassian | Pomak | Muslim Cretan |
Biga | 5000 | 2494 | 0 |
Smyrna | 5550 | 3229 | 20506 |
Magnesia | 4500 | 2900 | 3500 |
Aidin | 3750 | 4500 | 2200 |
Balikesir | 41000 | 13000 | 2000 |
Mugla | 5000 | 1500 | 2120 |
Denizli | 6200 | 8200 | 4000 |
Bursa | 27000 | 10350 | 3600 |
By spring 1923 the Armenians living in and around Turkey were dispersed as follows: 180,000 in Constantinople (of whom 30,000 were refugees); 120,000 in Syria (100,000 refugees); 107,000 in Greece (77,000 refugees); 60,000 in Bulgaria (40,000 refugees); 100,000 in Anatolia; 37,000 in Rumania (7,000 refugees); 900,000 in Russian Armenia; and 300,000 in the Caucasus (100,000 refugees)
@Lascaris, it is indeed fustrating not finding a source for the Circassian demographics. I couldn't find a decent source either.
That being said, it seems their numbers in your source are rather too low. We know that after 1923, Kemal exiled 10,000 Circassians to the eastern provinces. Also, even after suppression of their languages, in 1927 there were 95,900 people in Turkey with circassian as their mother tongue.
This books claims that in Izmit, Adapazari and Bolu, 75,000 Caucasians were settled in the 1870s.
The Circassian
Esref Kusçubasi remains controversial in Turkey over fifty years after his death. Elsewhere the man sometimes called the "Turkish Lawrence of Arabia" is far less known but his life offers fascinating insights into the traumatic, increasingly violent struggles that ended the Ottoman Empire and...books.google.com
According to Hatip (2018) the 1916 population of Bolu was 60,200 , the majority of whom were Caucasians.
According to "Sorrowful Shores: Violence, Ethnicity and the End of the Ottoman Empire, 1912-1923" by 1879, the following Caucasian population were settled in Western Anatolia:
- Ankara: 60,000
- Bolu: 23,000
- Afion: 5,000
- Eski Sehir: 14,000
- Adapazari: 35,000
- Kutahya: 3,000
- Izmit: 15,000
- Denizli: 1,500
- Balikesir: 35,000
- Manisa: 2,000
- Aydin: 9,000
- Canakkale: 10,000
- Smyrna: 10,000
Regarding the Armenians, according to the "30 year old Genocide",
So, by late 1921 (before the French giving back Cilicia) the Armenian population in Anatolia may have been close to 350,000, as the refugees to Bulgaria and Romania would have reached these countries after 1919. We know for a fact that the 30,000 refugees to Constantinople were Cilician Armenians, as well as all the 100,000 refugees in Syria.
By the way, if we add the 180,000 Armenians in Constantinople to the Greeks, Jews, Levantines of the city, by 1922 the muslim population would have formed a plurality but not a majority.
I hope these sources help!
They were pipe dreams of a part of the upper class who had no idea what was going on in Anatolia.Dragoumis lines of an "Eastern federation" of Turks and Greeks and to some extend expressed hopes at the fringes of Venizelist ideology for Muslim groups that could potentially be accommodated within Greece, after all this is the time of "Greece as an Islamic power similar to France".
They were pipe dreams of a part of the upper class who had no idea what was going on in Anatolia.
The only separatism in Anatolia was the circassian one. The Circassian elite found themselves transforming from a privileged ottoman group to common citizens. Their loyalty was first and foremost to the caliph. Other than that, their aspirations were to either form a statelet of their own or act as a privileged group for Greece, as Anatolian Cossacks. In my opinion the best solution would have been a separate Circassian state than incorporating the Circassians Cossack-style. If the christians of the Bursa vilayet where to move to Greece, and the Circassians of Aydin, Manisa, Smyrna, Afyon, Kutahya, Eski Sehir move to Bursa vilayet, then they may form a majority in part of the vilayet.
If I remember correctly you had made a map with the Balikeshir sanjak as a separate entity. That was very plausible. Good agricultural land, decent port in Bandirma, railroad and paved roads make Balikesir an economically self-supporting region. Balikesir had a very good wheat yield per acre and decent tobacco and cotton production.
Could that Circassian state get the support of Britain and France? And could they defend themselves from the Turks down the line or from internal Turkish resistance? Bursa is one of majority Turkic population so I believe they would rise up unless they get their representation and rights under a Caliph so to speak Turkey. That idea is better to me ,have 2 states one under the lawful Sultan/Caliph and another under Kemal in the Interior. That way you split their power-base on ideological terms rather than ethnic.
On the topic of breaking up states, would the Kurds separate themselves from Kemal is promised a state under British Mandate or would they stay loyal? And could the Armenians rise from their defeat in the East? Both of those nations have no land connection to Greece though so I don't know how they could get support but having an ally on the other side of Turkey is gonna be a big strategic bonus.
What Britain cares about is the security of the Straits. A non-turkish Balikesir sanjak shields the Dardanelles, without the need to invest a single British soldier.Could that Circassian state get the support of Britain and France?
What were the initial demands of Venizelos?as they had demanded in the Paris peace conference and if they reach an accommodation with the Circassians it would be along the lines of Circassian autonomy/ fully protected rights within Greece.
What Britain cares about is the security of the Straits. A non-turkish Balikesir sanjak shields the Dardanelles, without the need to invest a single British soldier.
To calculate Circassian support, according to "Sorrowful Shores", in December 1922 and long after the defeat in Anatolia, there were 3,000 Circassian cavalrymen in northern Greece.
If we discount desertions after the cause became hopeless and battle casualties, there should have been somewhat more pro-greek Circassian soldiers in 1921. What does it mean? Is it fair to assume a pro-greek Circassian population of at least 90-100k ?
What were the initial demands of Venizelos?
End game borders will be interesting regardless, especially with France possibly getting Cicilia and possibly Soviet/British inference getting more gains. It Kemal loses badly to the Greeks it will make Italian pride/prestige more damaged then OTL.
I believe those claims from Venizelos were for negotiating purposes only cause there lived more than 2 million Turks and I doubt the nationalistic Greece could assimilate them anytime soon.
The Circassians with those numbers could only be placed in the International Straits zone for security ,cause Britain and France would like to have them for free other than under Greek control. And in that zone the Turks would be a majority and if a republic is placed it would be Turk dominated, unless there is a purge. On the other hand those Turks could be placated maybe to not join the Turkish Republic if the Republic is in a really bad situation in the end of this war.
I'm sad with the Armenians although after the genocide they really didn't stand a chance alone in that area. Maybe they create a state under French Mandate in Cilicia and prosper there, if France doesn't give it up to the Turks as OTL.
To refer to my first comment on a Greek wank, I meant that the Greeks till now get all the right choices and they don't need to win at this point with the extra credits and bonds that they have. So try to balance that just to make things more exciting. Of course that is my opinion and I am not forcing you and maybe the others here don't agree so it's up to you.
I've catched up with this well-researched timeline. A very good work.
If Greece wins, would Britain still retain Cyprus? Or could there be an agreement for the transfer of Cyprus to Greece and Britain retaining extensive basing rights?
According to this document, by the Ministry of Education in Cyprus, a Cypriot delegation in London received a flat-out "No" from British official regarding "Enosis" with Greece, just 5 days before the OTL Greek 1920 elections. http://archeia.moec.gov.cy/sm/253/ethnikoi_agones_kyprion.pdf
how many greeks are we talking about here? will it have a real impact on greece demographics?