Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

I think we will see a significantly larger diaspora as you say, that’s likely a natural outcome. I imagine they’d likely take the space of what is likely a significantly smaller Greek diaspora ITTL.

That being said I don’t think Turkeys economy will be in that bad a shape by the mid to late 50’s. At least if they aren’t a Soviet puppet which is possible. If they’re neutral or Western aligned I see no reason why they wouldn’t experience a large economic boom from the Marshall plan post war like the other major participants.
I think you are right and that it won't be horrible but their agricultural sector will face a hard time with a more plateau-centered territory and they likely lost a rather descent chunk of their industrial and whatever service sector and trade centers they had. These can always be rebuilt with foreign aid, especially the latter, but it's still going to hurt a lot and the damages will be hard to fully repair, especially since they faced similar blows in the aftermath of the Balkans Wars and WWII-Greco-Turkish War. Hell, if anything these were probably even more costly in the grand scheme of things but the Ottoman state of the time was better able to absorb them then it probably will with this round of territorial looses... There is always the mining sector, which will be less damaged by whatever peace terms end up being given, but even there you'll have key deposits falling into the hands of the Kurds and the Soviets, and in the latter case they are likely to pass to Georgia and Armenia for the most part if the USSR also end up collapsing ITTL...

Overall Turkey is going to have a pretty though time. There is just no way around it for a state that took three major beatings in three decades and didn't get a parachute in terms of territorial looses in any of those, sadly for the Turks civilians.
 
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Overall Turkey is going to have a pretty though time. There is just no way around it for a state that took three major beatings in three decades and didn't get a parachute in terms of territorial looses in any of those, sadly for the Turks civilians.
Not to mention Turkish society will be forced to seriously reckon with the crimes that have happened from the Armenian genocide to the Assyrian genocide to the Maronite genocide to much more.
 
The camp of the British 9th army has got to be an … interesting place with so many disparate forces involved. Especially since so many of them got the same place promised to them. But if they can get past that, it’s got to be an interesting melting pot of beliefs and culture.
Perhaps on a more optimistic note, fighting on the same side could lead to friendships and ties that might come in handy in trying to get along down the line. History is just as much about numbers and great movements as it is the personal ties that come in clutch at a key moment. Comradery forged in the fire of breaking the axis could be a net boon for keeping at least... some of the middle east stable, considering that I'd bet a lot of these men might become the core of whatever new armies/states come into creation after the war.

Or at least avert a genocide or two at the right moment.
 
Perhaps on a more optimistic note, fighting on the same side could lead to friendships and ties that might come in handy in trying to get along down the line. History is just as much about numbers and great movements as it is the personal ties that come in clutch at a key moment. Comradery forged in the fire of breaking the axis could be a net boon for keeping at least... some of the middle east stable, considering that I'd bet a lot of these men might become the core of whatever new armies/states come into creation after the war.

Or at least avert a genocide or two at the right moment.
I hope you’re right. Beyond just the humanitarian effects you’re mentioning, it could have very interesting effect on world politics. Because this could be the start of a very, very interesting set of alliances ten years down the line. Iran, Kurdistan, the Hashemite kingdom, maybe India, and Assyria if it exists would be a hell of a foundation for either a West Asian NATO equivalent or a very powerful Neutral Bloc to keep the Soviets out of the Mid East.
 
I hope you’re right. Beyond just the humanitarian effects you’re mentioning, it could have very interesting effect on world politics. Because this could be the start of a very, very interesting set of alliances ten years down the line. Iran, Kurdistan, the Hashemite kingdom, maybe India, and Assyria if it exists would be a hell of a foundation for either a West Asian NATO equivalent or a very powerful Neutral Bloc to keep the Soviets out of the Mid East.
Tbf if that's the lineup (and the hashemites don't just get Jordan) they'd literally be one of the biggest blocs in the ME, and any Arab Republic that springs up in Egypt and Syria would have a hard time getting off the ground. Perhaps we'd see Saudi Arabia become more and more reprehensible to the point where the US can't accept them anymore, but other than that I don't see this alliance working since if there's no reason to work together I think they'll just split apart due to divergent wants.
 
Something that come up - were are the Armenian-in-exile?
What Armenians in exile?
The 4k Albanians on the Entene side in the Epirus front are in what units?
More on that later but the idea is that the Greeks have fostered in the part of Albania already liberated their οwn non-communist force, after all they need someone to administer it and they'd like an alternative to the communists if at all possible. Between Balli Kombetar and the communists the choice would be obvious... the communists but Athens has not magically grown pro-communist. So they are fostering an army under Spiro Moisiu, why the man would be looking a good candidate to someone like Pangalos should be... obvious, and Prenk Pervizi as an alternative to Hoxha's army.
has total greek army strength reached pre war levels yet?
As of July active strength is ~531,000 and growing. So significantly less than the peak strength of slightly over 720,000 men at the start of 1941. Of course the 1941 army while better equipped than its OTL counterpart is hardly comparable to the 1944 one which is following Western Allied models...
 
What Armenians in exile?

More on that later but the idea is that the Greeks have fostered in the part of Albania already liberated their οwn non-communist force, after all they need someone to administer it and they'd like an alternative to the communists if at all possible. Between Balli Kombetar and the communists the choice would be obvious... the communists but Athens has not magically grown pro-communist. So they are fostering an army under Spiro Moisiu, why the man would be looking a good candidate to someone like Pangalos should be... obvious, and Prenk Pervizi as an alternative to Hoxha's army.

As of July active strength is ~531,000 and growing. So significantly less than the peak strength of slightly over 720,000 men at the start of 1941. Of course the 1941 army while better equipped than its OTL counterpart is hardly comparable to the 1944 one which is following Western Allied models...
My dear fellow, thank your for bringing to our attention these personalities
 
I thought they were Armenian units in Greece - my bad
Where would they come from? No independent Armenia exists since early 1921. Greece has a sizeable Armenian community, over a quarter million people between refugees reaching it in 1918-22 and native Armenian communities in Thrace and Asia Minor, but these are Greek citizens.
 
Where would they come from? No independent Armenia exists since early 1921. Greece has a sizeable Armenian community, over a quarter million people between refugees reaching it in 1918-22 and native Armenian communities in Thrace and Asia Minor, but these are Greek citizens.
I assumed they were asking about the Armenians who signed up for the French(?) in Constantinople when the war kicked off. What ever did happen to those units from Constantinople now that I think about it? Just working for the French or did they get shuffled to the Greeks?
 
I assumed they were asking about the Armenians who signed up for the French(?) in Constantinople when the war kicked off. What ever did happen to those units from Constantinople now that I think about it? Just working for the French or did they get shuffled to the Greeks?
Back in 1941 as seen here they were forming one of the infantry regiments of the Free French 2nd Infantry division.

2e Division Francaise Libre
6e Regiment Etranger d'infanterie​
7e Regiment de tirailleurs Senegalais​
1er Regiment d'infanterie Armenien​

Now 2e DFL has become 2e Division Blindee which one might note is nowhere to be seen in Fighting France's divisions in the Mediterranean. :angel:
 
Back in 1941 as seen here they were forming one of the infantry regiments of the Free French 2nd Infantry division.


Now 2e DFL has become 2e Division Blindee which one might note is nowhere to be seen in Fighting France's divisions in the Mediterranean. :angel:

Very good information to have, thank you Lascaris

More on that later but the idea is that the Greeks have fostered in the part of Albania already liberated their οwn non-communist force, after all they need someone to administer it and they'd like an alternative to the communists if at all possible. Between Balli Kombetar and the communists the choice would be obvious... the communists but Athens has not magically grown pro-communist. So they are fostering an army under Spiro Moisiu, why the man would be looking a good candidate to someone like Pangalos should be... obvious, and Prenk Pervizi as an alternative to Hoxha's army.

If it’s not to spoilery would it be accurate to say folks like Muharrem Bajraktari and others might be considering moving away from Balli Kombetar when looking at the Albanian Allied force under someone as as respected as Pervizi? Prek Cali was a strong ally of the Chetniks OTL so him being an active ally to this force seems possible as well.
 
Not to mention Turkish society will be forced to seriously reckon with the crimes that have happened from the Armenian genocide to the Assyrian genocide to the Maronite genocide to much more.
Hopefully, but it won't necessarily be the case. I could see post-war Turkey having to face the recent crimes of their state and its army in a way not to dissimilar to how the Germans wound up facing and assuming their guilt for their action in WWII but I could also see the regime in Sivas using the Cold War to get away with not doing such a reckoning and wounding up closer to OTL's Japan attitude in that regard...

Only time, and Lascaris, will tell.
 
I just caught up with this one and I must say that I like it a lot. It's a very thorough treatment of a POD I pondered a few times but which I very much do not have the slightest ability to properly explore (the Greeks winning the Greco-Turkish War). Kudos @Lascaris

I haven't gone through all the comments in details so please do forgive me all if someone else has already mentioned these but two points came to my mind in term of the speculations made by posts on where the TL is going:

On the fate of Constantinople, I do think that the potential political power of the Patriarchate re-containing Russia does give Greece a pretty solid card to play to get support from its Western allies, especially has many of their officials would become more and more apprehensive about Staline... The rivalry between the patriarchs of Moscow and Constantinople for influence over the wider Orthodox world isn't anything new, and is very much going strong up to the current day in OTL, and the USSR leadership showed it wasn't afraid to instrumentize the Russian Orthodox Church in OTL, which I assume is true ITTL too. Having Constantinople be a free city and/or UN mandate, from which it would be very difficult to keep out the USSR, would probably allow the Russians to curtail the influence of its patriarch in a hard-to-quantify but very real way, boosting the profile of his Moscovite counterpart as a result. On the other hand, if Constantinople, or at least the European part, ends up having its Enosis odds are that its Oecumenical Patriarchate's soft power would be as high as it has ever been since 1453, thanks to finally being back under the jurisdiction of an Orthodox-majority country, which would leave it well equipped to affirm its preeminence against any move from the Patriarch of Moscow.
Or the Sovierts could try to directly influence/affect the patriarchate. Hmm ecumenical patriarch Makarios anyone? :angel:
On Turkey's faith post-war, I agree with what seems to be the consensus: it's gonna be in a bad state but functional, it will be able to soften the blow of losing the war by playing East against West, although its still going to be bad, and everything we know about Stalin tend to indicate that the next years are going to be extremely unpleasant for the ethnic Turks in the territory ceded to the USSR, with ethnic cleansing being likely :(
The extend of territory Stalin would actually care to annex is open to question but mass population movements in territory lost is all too likely given what happened in OTL.
However, I do think that in terms of mid and long-term predictions, we should also consider the potential impact of voluntary emigration as well. While it will probably emerge as a functional state post-war Turkey is also going to be unlikely to be a nice place to live. While it will probably escape paying much reparations and receive some economic by playing the Cold War card it will still probably need to absorb a lot of refugees, and lose a lot of its more economically valuable territory (sure, post-war Turkey will still look reasonably big on a map but a pretty huge chunk of that is just the core of the Anatolian plateau...), will have pretty poor relations toward most of its neighbors and will spend a pretty big portion of its budget on the armed forces.
Adana is likely the most productive region at least as far as its agricultural economy goes, I wonder how internal migration would be playing out here...
 
Or the Sovierts could try to directly influence/affect the patriarchate. Hmm ecumenical patriarch Makarios anyone? :angel:
Oh God! As a political figure, he was for sure an interesting guy. Such an odd mix of things that really fit my beliefs and inclinations and things that really don't... I may have missed him but I have not seen him anywhere in the TL. Is he still studying in Athens at this point like in OTL?

Its your TL, of course, but if I had to bet I'd say that a Greek annexation of even just the European old city would make it very hard for the Soviets to influence the Oecumenical Patriarchate. It would be an institution with its seat inside a Western Bloc country, whose electors also have their seats in a Western Bloc country and who at this stage has had quite some time to learn to see the Moscow Patriarchate as its rival, and therefore not been fond of its political backers.

If its an international city with a Soviet presence? Definitely yes, then, although the Brits and Americans being there would probably try to counter there with some influence on their own... This could easily end up in Late Middle-Ages-Renaissance Papal conclaves level of messy ecclesiastical politics with spillover in secular geopolitics :p
 
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And just for the giggles of it, some mediocre theme content. :p

1700166260574.jpeg
 
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An just for the giggles of it, some mediocre theme content. :p
That does kinda make me wonder, if the Hagia Sophia reverts to a church, would they keep the minarets? What about other Ottoman edits?

Actually what's the status of the building/the patriarchate under Bulgarian/German occupation?

Hopefully, but it won't necessarily be the case. I could see post-war Turkey having to face the recent crimes of their state and its army in a way not to dissimilar to how the Germans wound up facing and assuming their guilt for their action in WWII but I could also see the regime in Sivas using the Cold War to get away with not doing such a reckoning and wounding up closer to OTL's Japan attitude in that regard...
It could stand to be a good bit messier actually, different emerging political parties/wings could have varying opinions, a hard right could lean Japan's path, some sort of democratic and/or nascent communist wing could lean Germany's way and how the country handles with those issues could fluctuate wildly through the cold-war to modern day. Maybe some sort of new political movement could rail against the state's past failures both martial and moral as a way of gaining traction/international attention/reconciliation.
 
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