The regia marina and aeronautica doing better would be due to the allies controlling more of the Med when the Nazis would attack.
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Which monuments are on European Constantinople? What would the exact border be between the European and Asian side?
I'd say the border would tend to be the Bosphorus. Doubt the Greeks are getting Uskudar/Scutari.
Re Constantinople/Istanbul, I foresaw for the future of the City and the whole Bosphorus, a post war situation similar but reverse to OTL Berlin... I. e. taken by the Allies, but internationalized and divided among three or four Military and Naval occupation zones with one of them ceded/granted per treaty/interallies political agreement, to the Soviets...
What are the chances Balbo survives the end of Fascism by disassociating himself from Mussolini early enough? He could easily be an elder statesman in the country after the war ends if he plays his cards right, and he had a somewhat favorable reputation abroad from his aviation career.
Perhaps he could serve similar role on neo-fascism as Dino Grandi in OTL.
Pretty much all of them.
The Walls, the Hippodrome, Hagia Sophia, the Basilica Cistern, the Grand Baazar, Galata Tower, pretty much all palaces and mosques of note (thought of course there are mosques and Ottoman mansions/villas on the Asian side), the Rumelian Citadel, Sirkeci/Istanbul Train Station, pretty much all Ottoman era government buildings.
Asian side has the Anatolian Citadel and the Haydarpaşa Train Station and the Maiden's Tower.
Serpent
Banned
Well... that means ITTL Greece more than likely isn't getting any part of Bithynia whatsoever, which is really sad... And bad for the post war balance of power for Greece.
Probably divided into 5 occupation zones, there is no way Greece does not get to be the main authority in one occupation zone. After all it was Greece which defended the City.
Interesting! Well, that means Turkey will be screwed out of a lot of potential tourism in the future. Not to mention there's no way the Greeks won't make Hagia Sophia a church full time to spite the Turks and ensure Greek domination of Constantinople. Also, I hope Greece can get Bithynia, but if they can't at least they got most of their goals.
What I find interesting are the ramifications in Yugoslavia. So far we know the following:
- The Chetniks were strong-armed by the Royal Yugoslav goverment to become active against the Axis.
- The Royalists have a battle-hardened and mostly serbian field army in Greece.
The Royalists have significantly greater legitimacy compared to OTL. Along with this legitimacy the Chetniks will have a sginificantly greater arms supply by the Allies. The royal goverment has enough significance (read: a small field army) to persuade the British to minimize the supply to Tito.
I think the stage is set for a post-war Yugoslav Civil War. It will be brutal. I don't think that any side will have an overwhelming advantage. If I may make a guess, I think it is possible to see Yugoslavia splitting in three, between a royalist Serbia, a communist Croatia and a liberal Slovenia. The map I have in mind is this one with the border depicting the pre-war Banovina of Croatia.
Under these conditions, Italy might retain Istria. Tito will have much bigger fish to fry in Bosnia and Krajina. If Italy manages to be more useful to the Allies than OTL, then the chances for an italian Istria are maximized.
- The Chetniks were strong-armed by the Royal Yugoslav goverment to become active against the Axis.
- The Royalists have a battle-hardened and mostly serbian field army in Greece.
The Royalists have significantly greater legitimacy compared to OTL. Along with this legitimacy the Chetniks will have a sginificantly greater arms supply by the Allies. The royal goverment has enough significance (read: a small field army) to persuade the British to minimize the supply to Tito.
I think the stage is set for a post-war Yugoslav Civil War. It will be brutal. I don't think that any side will have an overwhelming advantage. If I may make a guess, I think it is possible to see Yugoslavia splitting in three, between a royalist Serbia, a communist Croatia and a liberal Slovenia. The map I have in mind is this one with the border depicting the pre-war Banovina of Croatia.
Under these conditions, Italy might retain Istria. Tito will have much bigger fish to fry in Bosnia and Krajina. If Italy manages to be more useful to the Allies than OTL, then the chances for an italian Istria are maximized.
Having a Yugoslav civil war ittl is very very interesting considering Tito just takes everything otl. It may be more like the Korean war in that it'd move the world into the Cold War ittl instead of the Korean war, and that it may cause changes in the Korean war and even the Chinese civil war as the Americans try to prevent the communists from taking over China (south China would be only a few provinces at most).
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So, would seems possible thath ITTL Yugoslavia civil war would take the place of the OTL Greece civil war but very much like multiplied x 10 ...
Also, any possible civil war scenario there should take into account that ITTL would probably be both Soviet and Wallies troops in the same Yugoslavia or nearby enough as occupation troops in Austria, Albania, Bulgaria(?).
Also, any possible civil war scenario there should take into account that ITTL would probably be both Soviet and Wallies troops in the same Yugoslavia or nearby enough as occupation troops in Austria, Albania, Bulgaria(?).
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All good points. I think the assessment of a civil war being likely in Croatia postwar has a lot of merit, and the position of Italy and Greece directly nearby as (most likely) Allies-aligned powers seems like it would tip the scales towards either the Royalists or a West-aligned republican movement, rather than the Yugoslav Partisans.
That said, there's a lot of room for diplomaric horse trading to be involved regarding foreign intervention. Bulgaria is an important card here; depending on whether it is Soviet-aligned or Allies-aligned (and for that matter how the war is going in Yugoslavia), it isn't out of the question for Northern Macedonia to be on the table in exchange for its own military intervention. Same is the case for Italy and pieces of irredenta on the Adriatic coast (particularly if they're in talks with the government in Belgrade, as any Croatian or Slovenian territory in Italian hands makes Serb predominance in government easier to maintain). Hell, there's outside chances the Hungarians, Albanians, and Romanians could get involved under similar auspices.
I could quite easily see such a Yugoslav War taking a similar position to the OTL Korean War in defining the postwar relationship between the *Warsaw Pact and *NATO (or whatever analogues of each arise, given that our PoD is far enough back some sizable variation in membership and structure is in the cards). It does bring into debate what would happen in Korea in this case, whether Soviet resources would be focused westward instead of on supporting the overthrowing of the ROK, or conversely if Western efforts would be too distracted by a European war to effectively combat the spread of communism in East Asia. The outcome of the Pacific and Chinese Civil Wars will also be key in defining how/whether a war in Korea happens ITTL:
- How the Pacific War ends, and the status of the postwar Japanese government (specifically whether it's disarmed or not).
- Whether Mao's communists or Chiang's republicans eke out a win in China, and what the postwar relationship between whatever Chinese government bordering Korea and Moscow looks like.
- How large the postwar Allied military presence and political involvement in Northeast Asia is, and accordingly the level of strategic significance the Korean Peninsula holds to them.
- Same vis-a-vis the Soviet Union - if for some reason their influence is weaker than in OTL (earlier end to the Pacific War and a stronger/more independent postwar Japan) or stronger (Soviets occupy Korea and/or Hokkaido before Japanese surrender occurs, or maintain hegemony over a rump PRC in Manchuria should Chiang be about to win in China).
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mapuche lautarino
Banned
We are in 1943 and the Allies are advancing rapidly in the Mediterranean.
Perhaps in the Balkans, Italy and Anatolia are a quicker path to victory over the Axis and in 1945 some Greek divisions are liberating Cambodia
Perhaps in the Balkans, Italy and Anatolia are a quicker path to victory over the Axis and in 1945 some Greek divisions are liberating Cambodia
I’m just wondering what the point of gaining Bithynia is. Its population is probably 100% Turkish and what’s the point of a territory with no one living in it.
Well, the path to victory in 1918 was half through Northern France and Belgium, half through the Balkans.We are in 1943 and the Allies are advancing rapidly in the Mediterranean.
Perhaps in the Balkans, Italy and Anatolia are a quicker path to victory over the Axis and in 1945 some Greek divisions are liberating Cambodia
mapuche lautarino
Banned
Bombing of Sofia in World War II - Wikipedia
sofia and ankara look a bit like hamburg when the war is over
I think the capital ittl is Sivas not Ankara but I'd think they'd bomb civ populations as part of WWII since I don't think the Turks will go down without a fight.Bombing of Sofia in World War II - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
sofia and ankara look a bit like hamburg when the war is over
Sofia should also be bombed into oblivion.
I think the Balkans are set to be vastly different ittl. The Yugoslav civil war idea is pretty interesting, I could see Serbia/Royal Yugoslavia holding onto Montenegro and N-Macedonia here if theres some sort of earlier split with the north...
The countries that I'm really looking at are Romania and Bulgaria. I seem to recall would've-been-King Michael was born a princess ttl(am I remembering that right?) so I wonder what might happen with an equivalent coup/flip? Bulgaria seems likely to end up in the western sphere but I wonder how that might play out with a functional Greece recovering from the... 'Policies' the Bulgarians have been enacting in their occupation...
The countries that I'm really looking at are Romania and Bulgaria. I seem to recall would've-been-King Michael was born a princess ttl(am I remembering that right?) so I wonder what might happen with an equivalent coup/flip? Bulgaria seems likely to end up in the western sphere but I wonder how that might play out with a functional Greece recovering from the... 'Policies' the Bulgarians have been enacting in their occupation...