Odyssey of Fritz, the Turncoat Prince

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Alt History Buff, Jan 8, 2018.

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  1. Jürgen Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I would think it far more interesting if instead of emperor Frederick ended up the next Eugene of Savoy, a foreign prince rumoured to be homosexual in Austrian service who pretty much personally cause every Austrian victory the next 50 years.
     
  2. Jürgen Well-Known Member

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    A few details, Gottorp didn't own parts of Schleswig in 1730ties (having lost them in 1721), the areas you call Gottorpian "Schleswig" are Stormarn a region in Holstein (Schleswig are the region north of Holstein). As the Danish king are duke of Holstein this would be somewhat insulting to him. The area also have little value for Hanover.

    So let me suggest a slightly different peace treaty, all of Holstein-Gottorp goes to the Danish king, Saxe-Lauenburg (a area again with little value to Hanover, which they have gotten it a short time ago) goes to Denmark. Denmark give up Oldenburg to Hanover. This gives the Elbe as a clear border between Hanover and Denmark and gives Hanover control over the Weser river, together with the Prussian possessions in west of Hanover this pretty much raise Hanover to the same level as Bavaria and over rump Saxony. As part of the deal the Austrians can also get the Danes to join the Austrian-British side. George II can also if he want decide top push for Jülich-Berg (whose dynasty will die out shortly and those domains will go to the Wittelsbach if it follow normal succession), which would push Hanover above Bavaria.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018 at 10:40 AM
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  3. darthfanta Offline

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    There’s only so much a general can do—Eugene proved that.And unless Frederick’s married to Maria Theresa,he probably wouldn’t be fully trusted.Frederick’s abilities extends far beyond military affairs,and he could do so much better as Emperor.

    Now I wonder if there’s gonna be a War of Prussian Succession.
     
  4. Jürgen Well-Known Member

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    Eugene of Savoy didn't have Maria Theresa to work with. She was a major reformer in her own right, to large extent a better one with a much more far reaching vision than Frederick. The areas where she needs hius advice are in the military reforms and in transforming the officer corps. It's also the areas where she would be the most willing to listen to him.
     
  5. Jürgen Well-Known Member

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    Also one thing about Swedish Succession, the potential candidate in Swedish succession in OTL was Peter of Gottorp (now duke of Livonia and heir to Russia) and Christian VI of Denmark. Peter was elected as candidate and later replaced with his 1st cousin once removed Adolph Frederick of Holstein-Gottorp-Eutin (who had no claim at all to the Swedish crown, go figure). So the Swedes can pretty much go with any Lutheran (or other Protestant willing to convert to Lutheranism) monarch in Europe.

    Edit: It do seem that Adolph Frederick did in fact have a claim, but you could have found several minor royal house with just as good claim (mostly among minor Welfian, Baden and Frankian Hohenzollern houses)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018 at 9:58 PM
  6. Threadmarks: Chapter 19: Rolling the Dice

    Alt History Buff Well-Known Member

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    Chapter 19: Rolling the Dice


    Spring, 1741


    Paris


    Despite the victory over the Habsburg Duchy of Milan (which the French kept 60% of the territory, the other 40% split between Piedmont-Sardinia and Parma), the situation in France was not exactly ideal nor did the war, as a whole, go to plan.

    Louis XV had predicated his aggression against the Habsburgs on multiple assumptions:

    1. The Habsburgs would be too entrenched in the war in Poland to defend their western domains of Sicily, Naples, Milan and the Austrian Netherlands. While the former three campaigns had gone fairly well for the Bourbons, the latter had yet to commence.

    2. There would be no effective resistance in the northeastern front (Austrian Netherlands) as Austria would be too exhausted by war (partially true) and the British-Hanoverians would be exhausted following an invasion of Hanover by Prussia if not totally conquered by Frederick William. The latter never occurred. Instead of attacking Hanover and reducing the allies' ability to resist a Netherlands Campaign, Frederick William invaded Poland himself and promptly made a deal with the Austrians, Poles and Russians to retain “Royal Prussia”. Then he made a deal to trade his western territories in the Rhineland for part of Saxony. Then the Prussian died and left his Kingdom to a boy disinclined to fight. The new King promptly stepped down his forces and released several regiments hired from smaller German duchies (Hesse, Lippe, Waldeck, etc) from his service…which were promptly hired by the British to fight for them in the Netherlands.

    3. Instead of a weak Habsburg and Dutch force to confront the bulk of his armies in the Austrian Netherlands, he now faced a stronger Austrian, Dutch, Hanoverian and mercenary force which may at any day be supplemented by British regiments (and already paid for by British money). The easy victory in the northeast no longer looked so easy.

    4. The shockingly facile fall of Louisbourg to a bunch of British colonials had badly shaken the French colonial office. Having believed the war would be a matter of endless conquests, the very real possibility of the British conquering Canada and the French West Indies….
    The French King already spent years funding a ruinous war and had yet to receive any benefit beyond 60% of Milan. Granted, this was a strategic decision as much as acquisitive one. He wanted the Habsburgs away from the frontier of France and seizing the stronghold of Milan accomplished that.

    As his army sat before the border of the Austrian Netherlands, draining his pockets by the day and no guarantees that victory was nigh.

    Great Britain was getting peevish and demanding that Spain withdraw from Sicily and Naples before any peace would be made…and Louis XV was quite certain his cousin would never give up the old Italian Bourbon possessions without a fight.

    Indeed, Louis I of Spain was already besieging Gibraltar. With a steady flow of gold from the new world (now prey to pirates), Spain was still capable of carrying on the war in a way neither France nor Austria could.

    Louis XV knew his treasury could not hold out much longer. The Milan campaign had been ruinous. He was already facing default on his debts or devaluing the currency. With Britain’s navy so strong, conquering the rest of the British West Indies seemed unlikely. If anything, the French and possibly Spanish West Indies were at threat.

    With victory in Europe unlikely and peace impossible unless Britain or Spain softened their demands, Louis XV found himself in a trap.

    In the end, he decided to move forward with the secret plan developed between himself and his cousin, Louis I of Spain. In the spring of 1741, the Bourbon powers sought to knock Britain out of the war with their most audacious gamble yet.

    From Marseille, Cadiz, Nice, Bordeaux and other ports, hundreds of transport ships gathered under the protection of dozens of warships.

    While the French had intimated that England was the target, the powerful British Home Fleet made this a risky proposition to even land upon, much less successfully invade the isle of Britain.

    Instead, the fleet sailed far to the west, caught the easterly trade winds…and land in June along the west coast of Ireland.

    First to set foot upon the undefended soil was the scion of the exiled House of Stuart.
     
  7. Alt History Buff Well-Known Member

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    I think, at this point, the Mamluk emirs of Egypt were already defacto independent from the Ottoman. The Pasha was still appointed but were kept deliberately weak by the Sultan/Grand Vizier who would replace them every year or so. Even then, the Emirs would often expel Pashas they didn't like from the country.

    Even if there was no outright rebellion against the Ottoman, I suspect the Egyptians wouldn't be any help in this war.
     
  8. darthfanta Offline

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    The Austro-British alliance get smashed by Maurice von Saxe and then Frederick gets recalled to face him?
     
  9. EWilanO Well-Known Member

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    I hope that the french enjoy ruling over a bunch of very religious, very fractious people that like to start feuds (and have a penchant for making excellent alcohol;) which when consumed in quantity doesn't exactly help making well-reasone decisions). While I see that some parts of the Irish population might welcome the French and Spanish, how soon will they feel that they chanhed one ruler against another? And being ruled by catholic powers this time might actually weaken the hiold of the catholic church on Ireland if the Invaders just muck up enough.
     
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  10. Ceslas Well-Known Member

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    If you've read Alt's previous TLs you would know their plan is to hand it to the Stuarts once the war is over and get out.
     
  11. Spelf (R-NY)

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    I would have to assume here that a large French Army lead by Charles Edward Stuart in Ireland combined with the King's assumed unpopularity due to his increased continental power would precipitate a large uprising in Scotland, no?
     
  12. EWilanO Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I did not read them yet, I just wonder why the Irish should prefer being ruled by Scotsmen to being ruled by the British?
     
  13. Spelf (R-NY)

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    In a word? Catholic. Also having a King in Dublin (which is usually how ATL invasions of the British Isles go) is advantageous
     
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  14. Droman Well-Known Member

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    ... The Scottish aren't Catholic? They're Presbyterian?
     
  15. Ceslas Well-Known Member

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    ...Are you completely unaware why the Stuarts are in exile? They were thrown out because they converted.
     
  16. Spelf (R-NY)

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    the Royal Stuarts were ardent Catholics
     
  17. Md139115 Bring back the Inquisition!

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    The average Scotsman is Presbyterian, but the Stuart dynasty (that are the rightful rulers of England, Scotland, and Ireland, thank you very much) is Catholic, and has been ever since Charles II converted on his deathbed.
     
  18. Droman Well-Known Member

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    3 for the price of 1. Yeah no, I just saw "Scotsmen" and got confused.
     
  19. Md139115 Bring back the Inquisition!

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    No problem.


    ALL HAIL KING CHARLES III!!!
     
  20. EWilanO Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't change that the Stuarts would still be considered foreigners. I mean, just because their catholic doesn't mean, that the French would accept a spaniard on the throne.
     
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