Oder as the Border between German and Polish upper Silesia

Is this scenario possible?

Actually, what I am actually asking is that instead of a plebiscite after WWI, Upper Silesia is divided in the Oder river instead and Lower Silesia except for the Border Polish cities will remain german, similar to the division of Cieszyn via Olza in the Interwar years.

@krieger @Jan Olbracht
 
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Until late in the war, Stalin seemed to regard the Oder as sufficient "compensation" for Poland (for the territories she lost in the East to the USSR). His insistence on the Oder-western Neisse line was a relatively late development. So of course the Oder is a plausible boundary--but that depends entirely on Stalin. The western allies were unhappy about the Oder western-Neisse line (that is one reason the Yalta agreement referred to "substantial accessions in territory" https://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/yalta.asp rather than a specific boundary) but there was really nothing they could do about it without starting another war. At Potsdam they gave what was theoretically only a "provisional" "until a final peace conference" recognition of the new border ("The three Heads of Government agree that, pending the final determination of Poland's western frontier, the former German territories cast of a line running from the Baltic Sea immediately west of Swinamunde, and thence along the Oder River to the confluence of the western Neisse River and along the Western Neisse to the Czechoslovak frontier, including that portion of East Prussia not placed under the administration of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in accordance with the understanding reached at this conference and including the area of the former free city of Danzig, shall be under the administration of the Polish State and for such purposes should not be considered as part of the Soviet zone of occupation in Germany." https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/decade17.asp). But that was just face-saving, and I think everyone knew it.
 
Actually, what I am actually asking is that instead of a plebiscite after WWI, Upper Silesia is divided in the Oder river instead and Lower Silesia except for the Border Polish cities will remain german, similar to the division of Cieszyn via Olza in the Interwar years.
 
Sure, it nearly was IOTL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder–Neisse_line#Concessions
The US buckled for no reason and had they stood firm Britain already supported them.

Even if it is true as the article claims that Stalin would have been willing to accept the Oder-Bober-Queiss line, that is a far cry from the Oder (or Oder-eastern Neisse) line. It is in fact only a minor departure from the Oder-western Neisse line that ultimately prevailed.

Anyway, the original post was apparently intended to be about post-World War I, not World War II.
 

Deleted member 1487

Even if it is true as the article claims that Stalin would have been willing to accept the Oder-Bober-Queiss line, that is a far cry from the Oder (or Oder-eastern Neisse) line. It is in fact only a minor departure from the Oder-western Neisse line that ultimately prevailed.

Anyway, the original post was apparently intended to be about post-World War I, not World War II.
Sure, but just because that was the concession they were willing to make as their starting position, it doesn't mean they wouldn't have been forced to accept the eastern Niesse/Oder line had the Wallies stood firm on the issue. But the Wallies, outside the British, didn't really contest things.

OP should really have made that clear in the OP, which he should be able to edit still.
 
Sure, but just because that was the concession they were willing to make as their starting position, it doesn't mean they wouldn't have been forced to accept the eastern Niesse/Oder line had the Wallies stood firm on the issue. But the Wallies, outside the British, didn't really contest things.

OP should really have made that clear in the OP, which he should be able to edit still.
done ninja'd.
 
If Russia was part of the winning side they'd be taking a LOT more than just part of Upper Silesia.
Yes, Austria and Russia would get all of Upper Silesia for their puppet Poland, they have been toying that idea since the time of the Wettins in Poland, since they gave the Wettins Cieszyn IOTL.
 

Deleted member 1487

Yes, Austria and Russia would get all of Upper Silesia for their puppet Poland, they have been toying that idea since the time of the Wettins in Poland, since they gave the Wettins Cieszyn IOTL.
They were going to take much more than that:
https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/war_aims_and_war_aims_discussions_russian_empire
The minister then went on with some suggestions about redrawing the map in favour of the victors. Of course, Alsace and Lorraine would be returned to France, as would Schleswig-Holstein to Denmark, while Hannover would be restored as an independent kingdom. Meanwhile, the Dual Monarchy would be split up into three separate components, Austria, Bohemia, and Hungary, while Serbia would acquire Bosnia, Herzegovina, Dalmatia, and northern Albania. There would also be some adjustments to other Balkan borders, while Britain, France, and Japan would divide Germany’s colonies amongst themselves.

Sazonov also divulged Russia’s desiderata. These included annexing the Lower Niemen River basin from Germany as well as Eastern Galicia from Austria. Meanwhile, the Kingdom of Polandwould also gain lands from the losers. The latter came in the context of an unusual proclamation in early August by the army’s commander-in-chief, Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich. In a manifesto that had been composed by the foreign ministry to all Poles under German, Austrian, and Russian rule, he called on them to unite in an autonomous state “under the sceptre of the Russian tsar…free in faith, language and self-rule.”[9] Although conservatives opposed it, the Grand Duke’s appeal was designed to strengthen the loyalty of a nation whose loyalty remained questionable.

Sazonov had a 13 point platform too:
Russia's initial war aims were set out in Sazonov's "Thirteen Points" of September 1914 and a statement by the Tsar himself to the French ambassador on 21 November 1914.

1. Russia would take the Lower Nieman region (Memel) from Germany, and eastern Galicia (the Ukrainian regions) from Austria.

2. Poland would be given self-government "under the sceptre of the Russian Emperor", with control over internal affairs but with Russia still controlling foreign policy, the army and taxation.

3. This new semi-independent Poland would be enlarged by taking Polish Galicia from Austria and part of Posen and Silesia from Germany.

4. The Russian Army High Command wanted to annex all of East Prussia, but the Tsar said no.

5. Austria-Hungary would be forced to grant independence to its South Slavs (Bosnians, Serbs, Croats and Slovenes).

6. The Tsar privately expected the Czechs and Slovaks to become independent too, but did not commit his government to supporting this publicly.


When the Ottomans entered the war Russia turned its attention to Constantinople.

1. In November 1914 they asked Britain and France to support an International administration of the Straits Zone. Britain agreed.

2. In March 1915 they extended this to annexation of the region. Again the Western Allies agreed to this.

3. In 1916 the Allies agreed to let Russia annex Trebizond and Erzerum, but Russian's more ambitious demands for Armenia and Kurdistan and Cilicia as far as the Mediterranean were rejected.
 

Deleted member 1487

Yes, but Germany also had conflicting interests with Austria as well.
Not really as of 1914. If anything Austria was without allies and was happy to have Germany even if they disagreed on certain joint strategic policy.
 
Not really as of 1914. If anything Austria was without allies and was happy to have Germany even if they disagreed on certain joint strategic policy.
But if we have the populace convinced on the united states of austria thing, it would be different.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
I kind of think it would be better if WWI was an alliance between Austria and Russia against Germany, they had more common interests IOTL.
Pan-Germanism was far too strong by then. The last time Austria and Russia could have plausibly allied in my opinion is the Austria-Prussian war. By that point though Russia favored Prussia due to a variety of reasons, not least Austria’s “betrayal” in the Crimean War.
 
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