Oda Shogunate = Japan-Wank?

Alkahest

Banned
Hey everyone!

Every once in a while I realize that I carry with me a lot of assumptions about history. One of these assumptions is that Japan was screwed over by the Tokugawa shogunate, and that if only Oda Nobunaga had been able to unite and rule Japan, the country would have remained more open to Western influences and technology, and that this would mean a geopolitically stronger Japan. So whenever I play around with the 16th century and want Japanese colonization of New Zealand or something like that, I just have Oda Nobunaga live longer.

Is this a dumb assumption on my part? Would a Japan united and ruled by Oda Nobunaga really become a Westernized great power earlier than in OTL? Or is it just a flawed way for me to justify my Weeaboo fantasies?
 
I've thought about this before too. Was making a Takeda shogunate TL untl real life attacked.
Japan could certainly be quite a power if it continues to adapt western shipbuilding technology and was more outwards looking in the time period. It has a major proximity advantage in Asia.
Emphasis on the could. Things could also go very badly for Japan.
Under the Tokugawa shogunate Japan became very rich and really laid a lot of the ground work for its succesful 19th century industrialisation. Without these few centuries of peace...there's no reason Japan would end up any different to other Asian countries. Given Japan's fragmented nature (political, cultural and geographical) and the inroads christianity was making it could well find chunks torn off by foreign powers- afterall it was only the divine ancestry of the imperial line which held the place together. Should that be believed to be not only false but downright herectical....
 

Alkahest

Banned
I've thought about this before too. Was making a Takeda shogunate TL untl real life attacked.
Japan could certainly be quite a power if it continues to adapt western shipbuilding technology and was more outwards looking in the time period. It has a major proximity advantage in Asia.
Emphasis on the could. Things could also go very badly for Japan.
Under the Tokugawa shogunate Japan became very rich and really laid a lot of the ground work for its succesful 19th century industrialisation. Without these few centuries of peace...there's no reason Japan would end up any different to other Asian countries. Given Japan's fragmented nature (political, cultural and geographical) and the inroads christianity was making it could well find chunks torn off by foreign powers- afterall it was only the divine ancestry of the imperial line which held the place together. Should that be believed to be not only false but downright herectical....
Interesting points. But does loyalty to the Imperial family really have to involve a belief that they are descendants of Amaterasu? And, well, as we all know there was a long period of struggle that wasn't caused by Christianity. Would the factors that allowed the Tokugawa shogunate to keep the country together be completely absent if Japan opened up to Western culture and technology?
 
I would say It's not a dumb "weaboo" fantasy. Oda Nobunaga as the whole "Great Man" he's claimed to be is overrated. Nobunaga had plenty of lucky breaks that could have ruined him other wise. Okehazama was a do or die situation that he easily could have lost, Nobunaga also got lucky Shingen Takeda and Uesugi Kenshin had died before actively facing him. Another problem with premise is his eldest son before the Honoji Incident was Oda Nobutada, he might not as bold or unorthodox as his father.

That aside it's all a matter what would this Oda Shogunate do about clans, the Tokugawa method came to bite in the ass when the Boshin war started.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Hey everyone!

Every once in a while I realize that I carry with me a lot of assumptions about history. One of these assumptions is that Japan was screwed over by the Tokugawa shogunate, and that if only Oda Nobunaga had been able to unite and rule Japan, the country would have remained more open to Western influences and technology, and that this would mean a geopolitically stronger Japan. So whenever I play around with the 16th century and want Japanese colonization of New Zealand or something like that, I just have Oda Nobunaga live longer.

Is this a dumb assumption on my part? Would a Japan united and ruled by Oda Nobunaga really become a Westernized great power earlier than in OTL? Or is it just a flawed way for me to justify my Weeaboo fantasies?
See my post in the other thread, the success Tokugawa Shogunate had is really being under-estimated.
 
Interesting points. But does loyalty to the Imperial family really have to involve a belief that they are descendants of Amaterasu? And, well, as we all know there was a long period of struggle that wasn't caused by Christianity. Would the factors that allowed the Tokugawa shogunate to keep the country together be completely absent if Japan opened up to Western culture and technology?

Yes.
The Japanese imperial family being of divine descent is the key change that the early Japanese made to the Chinese model of organising an empire.
As a result the imperial family was immovable. The nation could be torn apart by warlords and completely dominated by a single man...but he wasn't related to god so the best he could be was shogun.
In China meanwhile such a man would claim the mandate of heaven and declare himself emperor.


One thought I've had with Japan and christianity is what if we alter the timelines a little so we've protestantism more firmly established by the time we get christians poking about in Japan.
A heavily calvinist influenced Japan has interesting potential.
 
Yes.
The Japanese imperial family being of divine descent is the key change that the early Japanese made to the Chinese model of organising an empire.
As a result the imperial family was immovable. The nation could be torn apart by warlords and completely dominated by a single man...but he wasn't related to god so the best he could be was shogun.
In China meanwhile such a man would claim the mandate of heaven and declare himself emperor.


One thought I've had with Japan and christianity is what if we alter the timelines a little so we've protestantism more firmly established by the time we get christians poking about in Japan.
A heavily calvinist influenced Japan has interesting potential.

Why would the Calvinists succeed where the Catholics failed?
 
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