Occupation zones in Austria merged with German ones

Alright, so I was looking at a map earlier, and suddenly I got a fabulous idea! Remember those occupation zones in Germany and Austria after World War II? Well, the American, French, and British zones were merged to create the West German state, and the occupation zones left were abandoned, allowing Austria to become it's own, seperate, sovereign state. Meanwhile, Germany was divided between the west and the USSR. So...what if the allies decided to throw it all together and make one, big, mega-West Germany? No doubt the Austrians would have mostly opposed it. But what could have possessed the allied leaders to make this merger? Plausibility check? I mean, the occupation zones basically ignored the old German-Austrian border anyways...
Map for effect.

4_AlliedOccupationZones1945.GIF
 
Oh, and further: would the little Soviet Austria become it's own state, or be merged with East Germany as well?
 

Eurofed

Banned
No doubt the Austrians would have mostly opposed it.

Don't be silly. The vas majority of Austrians still deemed themselves German in 1945 and would be gled to be kept together with their German brethren. If the Allies don't puposefully foster Austria as a separate country, the Austrian national self-consciousness, which is entirely an artifact of Allied occupation, is never born.

But what could have possessed the allied leaders to make this merger?

A) Butterfly away the Moscow Declaration. The Allies take a long hard look into facts, and realize that Austrians were as willing accomplices of the Nazis as the other Germans.

B) Since I notice that Germany is not losing Pomerania and Silesia as well in TTL map, perhaps ITTL Valkyrie worked and the new government was partially successful in its diplomatic efforts to get a lenient peace for Germany ? It keeps 1938 borders minus East Prussia :)D:cool:) but Stalin keeps his occupation zones.

C) Stalin hopes to draw Germany to his side if he supports keeping Greater Germany together.

Oh, and further: would the little Soviet Austria become it's own state, or be merged with East Germany as well?

East Austria would be too little to be a viable independent state, and would be a draw on Soviet resources. In all likelihood it gets merged with East Germany.
 
I think it would be possible if the allies see Austria and Germany as one country and not two. In that case you probably see other occupation zones as OTL. No devided Vienna for example (as no other cities were devided by the allies). The occupation zones would most likely be continuous. If the American zone would be in the south, like OTL, it would include all of Austria, but less of Germany, while the soviet zone would probably include more of north west Germany, etc.
 

Typo

Banned
Merging Austria with Germany goes against the Moscow declaration, not to mention no one liked the Germans in 1945.
 
This is pretty ASB stuff. The Allies regarded Austria as 'the first victim of Nazi aggression' and were determined to keep it seperate from Germany. Christ, they'd be basically vindicating 1938 in full if they kept it joined with Germany. What would be the motivation here?
 

Typo

Banned
Oh god this is going to lead to the same argument I've already had like 10 times with eurofed :)
 

Eurofed

Banned
Merging Austria with Germany goes against the Moscow declaration

It can easily be butterflied away.

The Allies regarded Austria as 'the first victim of Nazi aggression' and were determined to keep it seperate from Germany.

Such a policy can be easily changed if they come to see Austrians as willing accomplices (as they actually were).

What would be the motivation here?

My previous post gives three plausible motivations. Doesn't anybody ever scroll beyond OP before posting ? :(
 

Eurofed

Banned
Oh god this is going to lead to the same argument I've already had like 10 times with eurofed :)

As the Alliedwankers like to quote, "nevah surrender" and fail to strike a blow for poor besmirched Grossdeutchsland. 'Accident of history' countries need to be butterflied away whenever possible. ;):p
 
Such a policy can be easily changed if they come to see Austrians as willing accomplices (as they actually were).

I'm not sure what this means really. If you're suggesting that the Allies were infused with a spirit of idealism and naivety with respect of Austria, then no, they weren't. They were well aware of how popular anschluss has been in Austria and didn't care. They didn't care because, as I said, they hadn't fought a six year-long war to vindicate the Nazis and keep Germany bigger than it had been in 1936.
 

Eurofed

Banned
They didn't care because, as I said, they hadn't fought a six year-long war to vindicate the Nazis and keep Germany bigger than it had been in 1936.

They could easily start off planning to keep Greater Germany divided under a different model than pre-1938 Germany and Austria, then switch off to West Grossdeutchsland and East Grossdeutchsland as the pressure of Cold War builds up. Plus as, I said, there could be different political butterfleis at owrk, such as partially successful Valkyrie changing the Allies stance, or Stalin trying to woo Germany to his side. You folks reason too much like the Allies are going to stay in an Entente mood forever. Cold War looms very soon...
 

Eurofed

Banned
Having said that, I easily concede that my most realistic preferred PoD for a post-1945 Grossdeutchsland is a Communist takeover in East Austria in 1949-50. Which, by the way, keeps Vienna divided like Berlin.
 
They could easily start off planning to keep Greater Germany divided under a different model than pre-1938 Germany and Austria, then switch off to West Grossdeutchsland and East Grossdeutchsland as the pressure of Cold War builds up.

There was no incentive for them to mess around with the occupation zones from OTL. If you look at the map then you'll see that the French and American occupation zones in Germany and Austria are contiguous and the Russia zone borders the east.

You folks reason too much like the Allies are going to stay in an Entente mood forever.

What allies? You mean those allies who mutually agreed two years before the fact to agree on unconditional surrender? Those allies who thought that Prussian militarism was as much to blame for the war as Nazism, and believed in many cases that German nationalism was inherently aggressive? Those allies who had spent years of blood and treasure on prosecuting the war? Those allies?

Saying that the allies wouldn't have been prepared to deal with the Germans isn't a misunderstanding of the historical facts, saying that they would have been is.
 

Eurofed

Banned
There was no incentive for them to mess around with the occupation zones from OTL. If you look at the map then you'll see that the French and American occupation zones in Germany and Austria are contiguous and the Russia zone borders the east.

Well, different plans for the division of Germany may easily be concocted by the Allies if they don't care about giving Austria a break or see it as something separate. There is the traditional Nord-South division of Germany at the Main, which has a strong precedent. The allies may plan for dividing Grossdeutchsland into North and South Germany (if they are still in a collaborative mode) or a British Northwest, a Soviet Northeast, and an American South, including Austria (with or without Russia keeping East Austria). When Cold War starts and Allied cooperation about the future settlement of Germany breaks down, this would default to West Grossdeutchsland and East Grossdeutchsland as usual.

As soon as Cold War starts, those issues become wholly secondary in the minds of the Americans and the Soviets. The Western mantra becomes "keeping the Americans in, the Soviets out, and the Germans down", which can be done easily as long as the Western powers keep troops in Germany and the countrey politically bound to the aborning EU/NATO framework. as soon as 1950, America was quite eager to rearm Germany. If the conditions to set up Austria as a separate state are butterflied away up to then, or conversely, the conditions to divide it like the rest of Germany are butterflied in (see my preferred PoD about a communist takeover of East Austria), a separate independent state of Austria shall never be born again.
 
B) Since I notice that Germany is not losing Pomerania and Silesia as well in TTL map...
Well, this is just of map of the occupation zones at the end of the war, before any part of Germany was partitioned.

Anyways, with a slightly different layout of the West German state, what would the allies choose as the capital? And why was Bonn chosen in OTL?
 

Cook

Banned
Don't be silly. The vas majority of Austrians still deemed themselves German in 1945 and would be gled to be kept together with their German brethren.

The Austrian Anschluss was seen as one of the key milestones on the road to war. Leaving Austria as a province of Germany was about as likely as leaving the Nazi’s in power as a Puppet Government.

If the Allies don't puposefully foster Austria as a separate country, the Austrian national self-consciousness, which is entirely an artifact of Allied occupation, is never born.

Prior to World War Two Austria had a very definite nationalist identity. See Engelbert Dollfuss and Kurt Schuschnigg’s efforts against the Nazi’s.
 
B) Since I notice that Germany is not losing Pomerania and Silesia as well in TTL map, perhaps ITTL Valkyrie worked and the new government was partially successful in its diplomatic efforts to get a lenient peace for Germany ? It keeps 1938 borders minus East Prussia :)D:cool:) but Stalin keeps his occupation zones.

You could still have all the same things happen, including the explusion of the Germans as per OTL - only this time give East Austria to Hungary, thereby recreating, in part, the core Hapsburg territory. :D All hail Ausztria-Magyarország, with capitals in Bécs and Budapest. :cool: (Of course, that would mean that towards the end of the 20th century, the German language becomes no more and everyone speaks Hungarian instead, but that's another story.)
 
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Eurofed

Banned
The Austrian Anschluss was seen as one of the key milestones on the road to war. Leaving Austria as a province of Germany was about as likely as leaving the Nazi’s in power as a Puppet Government.


It's like saying that since the Texan Annexation was a key milestone on the road to secession, it should be restored to independence, else it's like leaving Jefferson Davis in power.

Prior to World War Two Austria had a very definite nationalist identity. See Engelbert Dollfuss and Kurt Schuschnigg’s efforts against the Nazi’s.

You talk about two clerico-fascist dictators who were puppets of Italy and took and maintained power by force, and opposed popular demand for the Anschluss in order to defend their own power base.
 
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