Occitan Culture and importance before Cathar Crusade?

Zioneer

Banned
So, I'm curious about the Occitan culture, as well as the importance of the Occitan regions within France before the Cathar Crusade.

Obviously, I know Raymond XVI (or whatever number he is), who was Count of Toulouse and probably the most powerful Occitan noble during the Cathar Crusade, but I don't know much about the culture, mindset, culturally important places (like the Cluny monastery for the Normans, or Paris for the French, and etc), or even the nobles involved in culling the Occitans during the Cathar Crusade.

Please educate me on the Occitans, and Toulouse and the Cathar Crusade in particular.

Also, a list of nations and groups that could be powerful allies to an independent-minded Toulose would be nice.
 
A rather interesting book of the Occitan common folk is Montaillou: The Promised Land of Error by Emmanuel LeRoy Ladurie. It is focuses on specific village and fleshes out a rather evocative picture of Occitan village culture.
 
Oc wasn't really all that politically powerful, but it was home to a culture that was tremendously influential. Its aristocratic culture was where the idea of amour courtois came up and where the Frankish miles was tied to artistic accomplishment. They were an interesting bunch, and not much like they present themselves in their poetry. But it was the songs that made Occitan a literary language around the Western Mediterranean. The courts of Spain, of France and the Angevins, Italy, Sicily and Outremer imported Occitan as symbolic of a cultured, noble lifestyle much as modern-day wealthy people the world over buy American media products.

Now, I haven't done too much reading beyond Montaillou, but it appears to me that the Occitan cultural explosion owes a lot to fierce competition for rank between many, fairly impoverished aristocrats and influences from Muslim Spain. In many respects it seems to me that Occitan culture was defined by a relative dearth of everyday resources that extended competition into fields neglected elsewhere.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Oc wasn't really all that politically powerful, but it was home to a culture that was tremendously influential. Its aristocratic culture was where the idea of amour courtois came up and where the Frankish miles was tied to artistic accomplishment. They were an interesting bunch, and not much like they present themselves in their poetry. But it was the songs that made Occitan a literary language around the Western Mediterranean. The courts of Spain, of France and the Angevins, Italy, Sicily and Outremer imported Occitan as symbolic of a cultured, noble lifestyle much as modern-day wealthy people the world over buy American media products.

Now, I haven't done too much reading beyond Montaillou, but it appears to me that the Occitan cultural explosion owes a lot to fierce competition for rank between many, fairly impoverished aristocrats and influences from Muslim Spain. In many respects it seems to me that Occitan culture was defined by a relative dearth of everyday resources that extended competition into fields neglected elsewhere.

Occitainia was impoverished? I've read that it was actually quite rich, and that is why the French kings eagerly supported the Crusade into their own country. That and the fact that the Crown of Aragon was exerting a lot of power upon Toulouse and the surrounding areas.

So the Ocs were actually poor, and that owed to their creation of their cultural quirks, like courtly manners and troubadours?

Please, tell me more. I don't like to be wrong when assuming things about a culture.
 
Occitainia was impoverished? I've read that it was actually quite rich, and that is why the French kings eagerly supported the Crusade into their own country. That and the fact that the Crown of Aragon was exerting a lot of power upon Toulouse and the surrounding areas.

So the Ocs were actually poor, and that owed to their creation of their cultural quirks, like courtly manners and troubadours?

Please, tell me more. I don't like to be wrong when assuming things about a culture.

From what I recall - and again, I'm not an expert on the topic, I've just read up a bit when trying to figure out Italy - Southern France was not a rich country in absolute terms, but it was home to a wealthy upper class wirth ready access to luxury goods. In that regard it was rather similar to the kingdom of Sicily - the realm was rich, but the people generally comparatively poor.

A few aspects that may also havehad an influence here are: a stronger concentration of landholders in cities, powerful competition among the nobility for status, and less respect foer the hallowed traditions of the church.This is pure speculation, but I guess if you live in an environment where the church hashad a continuous living presence since the days of the Theodosian Code, you are more inclined to feel that it is your church - thatit should conform to the ideals and practices present in society - than that you are its flock to guide and correct (an idea mostly originating farther north, in the area dominated by the Irish and Anglo-Saxon 'reformers').

Another thing: throughout France you have strong, prouds and increasingly regional aristocratic clans. In the oc, they're especially entrenched while up north, they are increasingly coming under royal control at that time. That might explain something about the competitive nature of Occitan courts.

And finally, Occitania is just simply a nicer place to live than Normandy. That could have affected perceptions majorly.
 

Zioneer

Banned
From what I recall - and again, I'm not an expert on the topic, I've just read up a bit when trying to figure out Italy - Southern France was not a rich country in absolute terms, but it was home to a wealthy upper class wirth ready access to luxury goods. In that regard it was rather similar to the kingdom of Sicily - the realm was rich, but the people generally comparatively poor.

A few aspects that may also havehad an influence here are: a stronger concentration of landholders in cities, powerful competition among the nobility for status, and less respect foer the hallowed traditions of the church.This is pure speculation, but I guess if you live in an environment where the church hashad a continuous living presence since the days of the Theodosian Code, you are more inclined to feel that it is your church - thatit should conform to the ideals and practices present in society - than that you are its flock to guide and correct (an idea mostly originating farther north, in the area dominated by the Irish and Anglo-Saxon 'reformers').

Another thing: throughout France you have strong, prouds and increasingly regional aristocratic clans. In the oc, they're especially entrenched while up north, they are increasingly coming under royal control at that time. That might explain something about the competitive nature of Occitan courts.

And finally, Occitania is just simply a nicer place to live than Normandy. That could have affected perceptions majorly.

What exactly were these luxuries? And why were they available, but not needed valuable resources?

And why was Occitania nicer to live, despite these problems?

Thanks for continuning to explain to me why the Occitans were what they were.
 

Zioneer

Banned
MMMh It's pretty obvious, just look at a map.

Ah, right, closer to the Mediterranean, my bad.

That still doesn't explain why Occitania was generally poor. I thought that Mediterranean regions were richer then more inland areas, unless the areas in question were close to a large river (Paris, London, etc.)
 

ninebucks

Banned
Ah, right, closer to the Mediterranean, my bad.

That still doesn't explain why Occitania was generally poor. I thought that Mediterranean regions were richer then more inland areas, unless the areas in question were close to a large river (Paris, London, etc.)

We're ultimately talking about feudal systems here, and all feudal systems are extractive. The aim of any feudal system is too get the most out of your serfs before they start starving.
 

Zioneer

Banned
We're ultimately talking about feudal systems here, and all feudal systems are extractive. The aim of any feudal system is too get the most out of your serfs before they start starving.

So Occitania was the typical "serfs are broke and unhappy, but nobles are fairly affluent", with the nobles being poorer then most European nobility?

And the luxuries were the one thing that kept them from bankruptcy or poverty or whatever?

I understand the church thing; any state that lived with the Church for that long would of course want it to conform to what they wanted, rather then vice versa.

I just don't exactly get how the Occitans could have a poor region, yet possess many luxuries, along with the impoverished nobles forming a more influential culture, rather then just going to war more frequently, like the rest of Europe did.
 
Now that you mention that, you're right... Hmm... Is there any way to make Occitan culture dominant over Catalan culture?

If Provence and Lengadoc is under Aragon,this will make Provençal more superior than Catalonia but to secure that Savoy should be merged with Aragon or Savoy is a vassal of Aragon i think a Savoyard dynasty of Aragon is possible,if this is the case Provence would be the center of Catalan/Oc culture and Provencal is more prestigious than Bacava but no united spain.
 
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