Nudity in Western Culture

[Bassarion Korax]

I know this is a strange topic to bring up, but I’m recently returned from a trip to Italy where nude or semi-nude statues are seemingly omnipresent, and this got me wondering just when and how did Europeans and particularly Americans begin to get so buttoned up?

My grandfather told me stories as a kid about swimming naked beginning in junior high and continuing through high school in the 1920s and 30s here in the US. This prompted me to do some research online as a teenager, which turned up various photos and articles, including a photo that appeared in a popular magazine (I want to say it’s World magazine? I’m not sure) of a bunch of naked boys in junior high school in the shower. I also remember the movie Polly Anna beginning with a skinny dipping scene, and a 1960s version of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Fin also featured a skinny dipping scene, both involving minor children under the age of 15. Recently, someone on the forum posted a lecture in which a professor discusses medieval and ancient bathing culture, which was apparently widespread and fairly gender neutral. She even cites references of Charlemagne bathing with his entire entourage, which would have included his extended family, attendants, officials, soldiers, etc. At the same time though, I have seen Ancient Roman frescoes depicting women in what look like bikinis at the river.

I’m not sure if this is an accurate assessment, but it would seem to me that the passed was considerably less prudent in terms of nudity than today. So... what changed?

 

[JorgeGG]

Shouldn't this thread be in Non-Political Chat???

 

[Pkmatrix]

In the United States, we see-saw between being more libertine and more puritanical.

The '20s, '40s, the '60s/'70s, and '00s/'10s I'd say were the more libertine periods. Each faced a puritanical backlash in the '30s, '50s, and '80s/90s.

 

[Bassarion Korax]

Shouldn't this thread be in Non-Political Chat???

Perhaps, but we’re talking about the past Pre-1900, aren’t we?

 

[Bassarion Korax]

In the United States, we see-saw between being more libertine and more puritanical.

The '20s, '40s, the '60s/'70s, and '00s/'10s I'd say were the more libertine periods. Each faced a puritanical backlash in the '30s, '50s, and '80s/90s.

That’s to say nothing of the 19th century, however.

 

[JorgeGG]

Sorry but the example you put refers to 1920s and 30s so it kind of creates a confusion on what are you asking. So I read it as general question of the 20th century.

Also you are referring to nudity in arts or public life?

A better questions are.
Did Victorian puristism, or previous ones marked the end of public or semipublic nudity? Or in the artistic representations?
When was nudity in North America frowned on? (be it in artistic representations or public life) - in a more parochial sense

Anyhow in Europe naturism became a theme of healthy living in the 19th century along sports, gymnastics and outdoor activities and movements to provide the benefits of air and sun for all.

 

[Bassarion Korax]

Sorry but the example you put refers to 1920s and 30s so it kind of creates a confusion on what are you asking. So I read it as general question of the 20th century.

Also you are referring to nudity in arts or public life?

A better questions are.
Did Victorian puristism, or previous ones marked the end of public or semipublic nudity? Or in the artistic representations?
When was nudity in North America frowned on? (be it in artistic representations or public life) - in a more parochial sense

Anyhow in Europe naturism became a theme of healthy living in the 19th century along sports, gymnastics and outdoor activities and movements to provide the benefits of air and sun for all.

Right, excuse me. I am referring to nudity in public life, not just in art. I should clarify though - my grandpa wasn’t talking about skinny dipping in the ol’ swimmin’ hole, but rather institutionalized swimming classes and practices on the swim team. He said that it was normal for boys in high school on swim and water polo teams to practice and compete naked, and I remember being able to dig up some old news paper articles online from Michigan in the 1950s about the matter. He explained that while women and girls were always present at swim meets, nobody thought anything of it because “women were all virgins and mothers back then”.

One blog post I read was from the perspective of an elderly fellow who experienced naked swimming classes in the 1960s who described the whole experience as deeply disturbing and that by the late 60s and early 70s boys were regularly skipping gym class to avoid the social nudity. This suggests an already present underlying apprehensiveness.

From what reading I’ve done on the subject, both in rural and urban areas in the 19th and 20th centuries and before, public nudity was acceptable in various contexts, although usually related to bathing or work. For example, not everyone had a bath and a shower in their homes in New York and Chicago until the mid 20th century, and so public bath houses appear to have been the norm throughout much of the history of both cities, which seem to have slowly been converted into pools, with the process finalizing in during the latter half of the 20th century. The bath houses I’ve read about in the US and the UK were all strictly gender segregated, however. I’ve also read about farmhands and miners working naked when the heat got to be too extreme in North America in the 19th century.

What’s more, when you visit George Washington’s Mount Vernon estate in Virginia, you see will see that there is not a single bath in the entire complex, meaning that the family, employees, slaves, and guests would have all bathed in the Potomac River. Presumably at different times, I would think, but then a 19th century castle in Sintra in Portugal I visited had its servant’s showers without curtains and right next to an open courtyard that was literally visible from one of the guest bedrooms. Even if the bedroom weren’t there, it would have been hard not to avoid the courtyard and all the naked folks washing up.

I think that at a certain point nudity in European arts lost contact with its every day's life analogue which disappeared rapidly after.
I also think that this loss of contact happened during the second half of the XIX century (Though probably it was only the end of a very long process.) 'cause (I definitely may be wrong.) this period saw the complete consolidation of the Industrial Revolution's social effects in most of Europe.
What I mean is that while the old aristocracy and XVIII century's intellectuals were sometimes, morally speaking, quite decadent from their contemporaries' point of view, the new classes (Entrepreneurial Bourgeoisie and Proletariat.) where culturally different for what concerns certain topics.
Also is worth noticing that this period saw the definite triumph of the city over the countryside in Continental Europe, so this may probably be another cause (If the farmers's world had different views about nudity.).
Still these are only empy ruminations that can be completely wrong.

That didn’t make much sense... I’m sorry. Maybe I’m reading it wrong. Anyways, while I understand the conception of nudity being more a part of regular life in the country, I think that’s very much a modern concept. When we think of people swimming naked today, we almost invariably think of nude beaches or a bunch of Boy Scouts at camp. However, as discussed above, many people within cities didn’t have bathing facilities in their homes for quite some time, and public bath houses were a fairly normal occurrence even in the United States.

I know that Europeans are still considerably less uptight about nudity than Americans are, but I have heard that, especially in the last 10 years, things have been changing very quickly, even in countries like Finland with long-standing traditions of social nudity (the sauna).

 

[Don Corleone]

I just hope the US doesn't change anytime soon. Way too many people you don't want to see naked.

Had to buy a belt today and was forced to settle for one I didn't really like. That's because the smallest one I could find was 34 inches which was still too big. 34 inches is 86 centimeters for any commies reading this ☺

 

[Donald Reaver]

I remember a story when the actor Patrick Macnee came to Toronto (John Steed from the Avengers) in 60's or later was in Toronto and went to the local Y.M.C.A. for a swim. Being use to men only swims and swimsuits optional he came out of the dressing room to swim nude. Was surprised.

 

[Bassarion Korax]

I just hope the US doesn't change anytime soon. Way too many people you don't want to see naked.

Had to buy a belt today and was forced to settle for one I didn't really like. That's because the smallest one I could find was 34 inches which was still too big. 34 inches is 86 centimeters for any commies reading this ☺

Perhaps people wouldn’t be so overweight if social nudity were more normal?

 

[Byzantine fanatic]

Perhaps people wouldn’t be so overweight if social nudity were more normal?

Either that or going outside would be considerably worse...

 

[Kalga]

Perhaps people wouldn’t be so overweight if social nudity were more normal?

Either that or going outside would be considerably worse...

Or more people being more used to bodies of all shapes and sizes... okay, so a long shot, but somebody has to at least pretend to be optimistic here.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Or more people being more used to bodies of all shapes and sizes... okay, so a long shot, but somebody has to at least pretend to be optimistic here.

Probably less obsession (among guys) for that perfect v-shape (and the "manorexia") to go with it. Same for girls. Fewer eating disorders because of the "airbrushed" images of size zero models.

Or have I got this completely arse-about-face?

 

[Don Corleone]

Probably less obsession (among guys) for that perfect v-shape (and the "manorexia") to go with it. Same for girls. Fewer eating disorders because of the "airbrushed" images of size zero models.

Or have I got this completely arse-about-face?

You didn't see as many body issue problems when society was more modest.

Even without obesity (the target of my joke) people still have skin blemishes or other imperfections.

 

[Hvalrossen]

Right, excuse me. I am referring to nudity in public life, not just in art. I should clarify though - my grandpa wasn’t talking about skinny dipping in the ol’ swimmin’ hole, but rather institutionalized swimming classes and practices on the swim team. He said that it was normal for boys in high school on swim and water polo teams to practice and compete naked, and I remember being able to dig up some old news paper articles online from Michigan in the 1950s about the matter. He explained that while women and girls were always present at swim meets, nobody thought anything of it because “women were all virgins and mothers back then”.

One blog post I read was from the perspective of an elderly fellow who experienced naked swimming classes in the 1960s who described the whole experience as deeply disturbing and that by the late 60s and early 70s boys were regularly skipping gym class to avoid the social nudity. This suggests an already present underlying apprehensiveness.

From what reading I’ve done on the subject, both in rural and urban areas in the 19th and 20th centuries and before, public nudity was acceptable in various contexts, although usually related to bathing or work. For example, not everyone had a bath and a shower in their homes in New York and Chicago until the mid 20th century, and so public bath houses appear to have been the norm throughout much of the history of both cities, which seem to have slowly been converted into pools, with the process finalizing in during the latter half of the 20th century. The bath houses I’ve read about in the US and the UK were all strictly gender segregated, however. I’ve also read about farmhands and miners working naked when the heat got to be too extreme in North America in the 19th century.

What’s more, when you visit George Washington’s Mount Vernon estate in Virginia, you see will see that there is not a single bath in the entire complex, meaning that the family, employees, slaves, and guests would have all bathed in the Potomac River. Presumably at different times, I would think, but then a 19th century castle in Sintra in Portugal I visited had its servant’s showers without curtains and right next to an open courtyard that was literally visible from one of the guest bedrooms. Even if the bedroom weren’t there, it would have been hard not to avoid the courtyard and all the naked folks washing up.



That didn’t make much sense... I’m sorry. Maybe I’m reading it wrong. Anyways, while I understand the conception of nudity being more a part of regular life in the country, I think that’s very much a modern concept. When we think of people swimming naked today, we almost invariably think of nude beaches or a bunch of Boy Scouts at camp. However, as discussed above, many people within cities didn’t have bathing facilities in their homes for quite some time, and public bath houses were a fairly normal occurrence even in the United States.

I know that Europeans are still considerably less uptight about nudity than Americans are, but I have heard that, especially in the last 10 years, things have been changing very quickly, even in countries like Finland with long-standing traditions of social nudity (the sauna).

This was new to me.

 

[Arcavia]

You didn't see as many body issue problems when society was more modest.

Even without obesity (the target of my joke) people still have skin blemishes or other imperfections.

Not actually sure about that, might it not have simply been that they were not as openly discussed even compared to today?

 

[Gabingston]

I think that the difference between nude statues and nude people is that marble doesn't turn you on, but meat does (especially if you're a guy looking at a nude woman, that's why porn is so addicting).

 

[Bassarion Korax]

I think that the difference between nude statues and nude people is that marble doesn't turn you on, but meat does (especially if you're a guy looking at a nude woman, that's why porn is so addicting).

I’m not sure how this has anything to do with the subject. Lol

Once upon a time, until at least my parents’ childhood, social nudity was considered more normal in the West. Today, it is almost exclusively unacceptable, especially in the United States, where even the briefest momentary nudity in the locker room is increasingly viewed as strange and uncomfortable. Something has changed, but the change seems to have been slow and incremental, and so I am wondering if anyone can tell me exactly what they think it is, or if there are multiple factors at play.

 

[sloreck]

Even in western societies where nudity is more common, generally just indoors or skinny dipping, the norm is a segregation by gender somewhere around 7-10 when boys and girls become attuned to differences. While in Sweden mixed gender saunas are not uncommon, in Finland, other than family saunas, they are segregated by gender.

 

[Kaushlendra pratap singh]

I don't know about west but in India, nudity is acceptable in past time before Muslim invader, whore or the respectable word in Sanskrit Nagarvadhu(wife of the city ) had a position in City Council and king courts and some time their power eclipse the king power, Many time Nagarvadhu were prime reason for war and peace between kingdoms of India. Also at 500 AC saint Vatsyayana already wrote Kamasutra book on sex .