"Now Blooms the Tudor Rose."

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I must be the only person mildly pleased that the ever-Rosicrucian couple of Janos and Margaret is gone.

When it comes to idealistic monarchs, I much prefer Erik and Karin.

Also -- are we seeing foreshadowing that Leandro's Rosicrucian zealotry will be New World-focused, unlike Sebastian and Morocco OTL?
 
Superb update.

Man, the Habsburgs really reached the end of their rope in this chapter. No more gold coming from the new World for quite a time, and enemies everywhere...
 
I must be the only person mildly pleased that the ever-Rosicrucian couple of Janos and Margaret is gone.

When it comes to idealistic monarchs, I much prefer Erik and Karin.

I prefer it when the King is mad with tolerance instead of just plain mad, but I can see why the closest thing to the couple with a combo voice message can get grating. Still, poor Janos Henrik.

The point about Henry IX and Mary having a complex over loneliness is interesting, both being absolutist monarchs who can remove people from power because they don't like them probably creates the question of 'you're not just saying that because I can ruin you, right?' and that can distort a friendship or two. I still get the sense that we're going to see these flaws bite at least one of them in the butt, just as we had with Janos' sense of righteousness, and Edward is going to be the one to bring it back after years of going with the flow.

Philip's whole regime seems to be going to shit. Pope's plan to take back Italy itself sounds like it's going to be a lot easier when everyone is focusing on getting rid of the King or waiting to see how things go, hell, we might see France do a good job of things for a brief while until Henri's flaws get to him again. Central Europe might be entering a ceasefire period, if Ferdinand's push for a treaty actually manages to yield results this time rather than uneasy muttering. John Frederick's side have got a few issues to deal with, not least setting up a new Bohemian King, and it might be time to let the Bond go hang for a while as it all gets rebuilt. Not that it'll last, my guess is that a certain heir to the Austrian throne isn't exactly going to see the peace deal as anything close to worth the paper it's written on.

On Japan, it's interesting that the traditional crab-bucket nature has been temporarily suspended, not least because of the Miyoshi Letter. Matsunaga's probably going to attempt a defection, which might work as it did IOTL, but Nobunaga and Shingen together may just decide to take the guy down. Not to mention that it frees up three years of action for Nobunaga to go and expand his power-base, without the sieges against the Saito to deal with, although that in turn has the price of leaving his Eastern flank exposed to the Takeda who'll be suspicious. Not to mention the lack of a justification in the form of the OTL Shogun. If I had to venture a guess, the Oda-Takeda success is going to see a quid-pro-quid after eliminating the Miyoshi. Nobunaga helps with another campaign to help Shinano and Shingen looks the other way as Nobunaga in turn establishes himself against other neighbours.

What's interesting is your interpretation of the Shingen-Kenshin relationship, going with the traditional warrior's respect route compared to the more revisionist idea of Kenshin hating Shingen for his ambition and generally not being a great dude. After all, Katsuyori's mother was a teenager version of Yoshinari's in terms of Daimyo taking concubines after killing rivals. My own view is that Kenshin hated Shingen the Man but he had this fascination with Shingen the Phenomenon, the man who faced him down in Kawanakakajima and the great nemesis who symbolised the evils plaguing Japan. It'll be interesting to see whether this rivalry will actually see a culmination here, especially once Shingen and Nobunaga get to Kyoto.

Selim's killing of his last son seems a bit much. Granted, he was a rebel, killed his brother, and wasn't that great, but throwing the succession into doubt seems more emotional than pragmatic. Still, it's not as bad as Ivan going around and screwing himself over. Over in Africa, Hawkins and Drake are making friends with the Kongo King in their attempt to create an International Slavery System, which is...a thing, and the Portuguese are helping the Ethiopians fight against the Egyptians. I suppose it's better than dealing with the continent where former colonies are declaring themselves empires so that they can get away with murdering natives.

Great to see another update, the whole thing with the Hapsburg describes the action itself, the shit's hitting the fan but now the big stuff has Happened and now some areas have got to calm down. At least until they're ready to kill each other again, or not, but I guess that's how this period of time worked.
 
Ooh! Ooh! I want to wave a flag with a lion on it! Pick me!

As always, great to see an update of this timeline. I may have to set aside time at some point to do a re-read and see if I can figure out some of the more tangled plots.

I will be interested to see how things go in Spain's colonies. Peru seems like it will be quashed, but the Empire of Mexico & Anahuac seems like it could be more viable. I enjoy the touch of Cortez vs. Montezuma: The Next Generation...

Also, I will miss Janos & Margaret. :( Hopefully Janos II grows up and has a long, prosperous reign...
 
Best TL on the site bar none.

Love the snarky narration and that it never really feels like there`s a thumb on the scales. Looking forward to seeibg more Duke of York, he`s my favorite character here.
 
Knowing some Japanese History I find it very interesting that Takeda and Oda if not being allies are at least working together on this. I wonder if Oda will live to become Shogun in this world.
 
Knowing some Japanese History I find it very interesting that Takeda and Oda if not being allies are at least working together on this. I wonder if Oda will live to become Shogun in this world.

Technically, only a descendant of the Minamoto could claim that title, while Oda was a descendant of the Taira. Shingen might make a grab for the prize when he and Nobunaga beat the Miyoshi, seeing as the Takeda had said connection (as did the Tokugawa, Imagawa, and even Ranmaru Mori among other clans), which I'm sure isn't going to lead to tensions among neighbours or with his 'partner'. Uesugi/Hojo VS Takeda/Oda?

I am interested in where a lot of Ieyasu's future retainers went after their man died at Okehazama, some having joined in the post-Yoshimoto clean-up IOTL. IIRC Space Oddity mentioned that Shingen took a lot of the Imagawa lands so they might have stuck with him. The Oda had been rivals to the Matsudaira for a long time, after all.
 
1) Wow, that's a huge update.

2) the Miyoshi letter. How .... convenient... Why, it couldn't have been better if Oda dictated it himself. :) (Seriously, is this letter real ittl or forged?)

3) Oh my. Spain is in a world of hurt.

4) Italy unified by the Pope? Centuries early? Sure looks like where Italy is headed.

5) Wow there's a lot of stuff here.

6) Did I mention: Wow!
 
The Spanish is now focusing on Indonesia due to the acquisition of Portugal, so if the Spanish focuses in Indonesia, the Pagans might migrate to the OTL Philippines.
 
Ah, I so love Habsburg screws, especially when they happen to Phillip II of Spain.

And this screw is even better than the TL where France went Protestant and fought three wars with Spain before smashing them to literal pieces, leaving 'Spain' in an unstable civil war that was seeing it permanently break apart before the TL died.

As much as I like Charles 'the Rouge Prince' Habsburg, I just don't think even he can put everything back the way it was.

I'm picturing Spain temporarily regaining control over it's New World territories, but the 'controls' will be even weaker than before, they'll lose at least some of their Italian holdings, and 'Burgundy' might find itself losing large chunks of territory to France, while other parts might achieve independence in all but name.

I do hope that Janos III becomes King of Bohemia, I had in my mind that the personal union of Bohemia and Hungary would become this world's version of Austria-Hungary.

Then there's the 'British Union', as much as I love Henry IX and Mary I in this TL, their Irish policy is a recipe for endless war that will make RL Ireland look like paradise by comparison. It is nice to see John Knox getting it in the neck though. :D

Alas poor Russia, things won't have a hope of getting any better until Ivan dies, let's move on.

And I'm loving that in this TL Eric XIV and Queen Karin have a real shot of getting their kids on the Swedish throne... Though I'm curious about what Magnus of Livonia is up too...

As for the House of Osman... If Selim manages to cling to life he might be able to sire a child or two, but the tradition of brother killing will have to be put on hold since there's too many risks of the house dying out because of it. Maybe he'll do something radical like declaring a daughter as his heir...

As for the HRE... It's a hot nasty mess, then again it's the HRE.

I don't know much about Ethiopia, but I am curious about what will happen along with events in China and Japan.

But when will the butterflies hit Korea?
 
Oh, I hope the Ottomans collapse post-Selim. Don't see too many Ottoman-screws in this period of history, they just let them linger on.

Of course, none of their neighbors are doing well other than maybe I, Gelawdewos and the Yemenis.
 
From hints we've seen, I think that the Hapsburg screw has got to be reaching its peak by now, they've got to start recovering because:
-The French king is a fuck-up and he's already annoying the English.
-The Hungarians just lost their king.
-The bleeding in Germany seems just about done.
-The Emperor of Peru is a nutbar who won't last.
-We know that the sons of Prince Charles of the Asturias and Henry IX will be frenemies so that means that there must be enough Hapsburg power left for Philip II's grandson to play a meaningful role.

Still, it does seem pretty dumb to take most of your army out the Low Countries RIGHT when the French were about to invade. Probably would've been smarter to stymie the French then head to Spain.
 
Technically, only a descendant of the Minamoto could claim that title, while Oda was a descendant of the Taira. Shingen might make a grab for the prize when he and Nobunaga beat the Miyoshi, seeing as the Takeda had said connection (as did the Tokugawa, Imagawa, and even Ranmaru Mori among other clans), which I'm sure isn't going to lead to tensions among neighbours or with his 'partner'. Uesugi/Hojo VS Takeda/Oda?

Yes, but the whole thing is called Nobunaga's Ambition for a reason. He doesn't seem like the kind of man that would let even tradition from stopping him getting the top spot. Or, if not that making sure one of his descendants marries the proper people to be able to claim descent.
 
At long last, it has returned! And it was very much worth the wait, as we all knew it would be :)

Like most such charges, it can be argued that the strength of these crazy rumors--aside from the ever-present desire to believe in some corners--is that they are based, very loosely, on a certain truth. Henry IX and Mary are both rather flirtatious personalities, with a tendency to surround themselves with a great deal of charming, good-looking, young men and women, many of whom find themselves showered with favors. Indeed, it's not unknown for a favorite to be picked up by the husband or the wife, and then quickly become part of the spouse's retinue as well. More than a few historians will note about the general feeling of loneliness the pair can give off--the ever-shifting "inner" circles they keep, the tendency for what amount to substitute parental figures to climb to prominence only to be discarded as needed. It makes for often dramatic and frequently oddly intimate court, a place where the border between official and personal relationships is exceedingly hazy. This is hardly unique, of course, but it is... pronounced, and the mutual interest of husband and wife only underlines it further. None of which changes the fact that this is a horribly embarrassing and offensive piece of work.
In addition to the effect this pamphlet has on society and diplomacy in the "present", I can't help but picture how it will influence historians in the centuries to come. This paragraph hammers home how the pamphlet manages to take a kernel of truth and stretch it into some of the tallest tales ever recorded. The question is going to be where the kernel ends and where the exaggeration begins, and historians with an agenda (pardon my redundancy) will no doubt find it best suits their purposes to be quite arbitrary in marking the dividing line.

Space Oddity said:
But the slightly-smaller marriage of the young Dauphin of Auvergne's father, Louis, Duke of Montpensier to Louise de Lorraine[7], of the Mercouer Lorraines, is equally important, tying the conservative branch of the Bourbons to the ultraconservative branch of the Lorraines. Present at this marriage, the families' mutual distant cousin, Charles, Cardinal de Bourbon, who has served as the something of a go-between for the involved parties. This, he feels, will guarantee that he is going to be, if not king, the man behind the king in the future of France.
Not if young Louise isn't any more fecund than her OTL sister...

Space Oddity said:
The pregnant Queen Margaret of Hungary and Bohemia will go to bed one night, complaining of feeling warm. It will soon become clear she is ill with typhus. Within a week, she will be dead. She is only a few months shy of her twenty-seventh birthday.
Well! :eek: This was certainly shocking, although I suppose it wasn't entirely unexpected - death by childbirth was quite common in those days, after all. In any event, that's one more Tudor down, three more to go - interesting that (miscarriage aside) the first two of Anne's children to die were her two youngest. I can't imagine what Anne feels, herself being quite old by now (over 65, assuming she was born in 1501) and having survived yet another child - this one in the prime of her life.

Space Oddity said:
Indeed, Leander, who is now attending meetings of state under the direction of his great-uncle--his regency will formally end next year--insists that every meeting begin with a prayer for the success of "the great and holy endeavor to free the New World of heretics".
Why does something tell me Leander's religious devotion doesn't quite extend to cover the directive to be fruitful and multiply?

Space Oddity said:
Yes, El Cid's getting a river named after him in the new world, as well as the fort being built near the river.
Worth noting is that the river in question IOTL is the Mobile River, which just as ITTL shares the name of the city located at the mouth of said river, not settled IOTL until 1702, by the French.

Space Oddity said:
In many ways, it's a tragedy for the Spanish, as the French in what will come to be known as "Acadia"--as a result of colonial founder Jean Ribault's effort to name it "Arcadia", partially in homage of ANOTHER section of the New World the French explored
The region in question being largely coterminous with the present-day Maritime provinces of Canada (plus parts of Maine and Quebec). Acadia "proper" was what is now mainland Nova Scotia.

Space Oddity said:
As for poor Charles Stuart, he continues to enjoy English custody in the Tower of London, as England and Scotland quietly argue over who has the right to try him and then kill him. They want to be fair over this, after all.
I don't suppose this might be a scene in a future instalment of Aske Away!, by any chance? :)

Space Oddity said:
While Hawkins has put a good deal of his own capital into this, and yes, has the King's backing, the fact remains more money is needed. A lot more--Henry IX's unofficial motto on these things is "get some other poor bastard to pay for it".
Wonderful, he really does take after his grandfather in some respects, then :cool: (Edward must be so proud.)

Space Oddity said:
Once that's out of the way Aguirre gets his rebellion into overdrive, grabbing as much of Lima and its environs as he can, before attempting his own, rough imitation of the Marquis' coronation.
Sheesh, do the Spanish authorities have to do everything in South America that they've already done in Mesoamerica?

Space Oddity said:
Yes, it's clear to the Libertines they need an angle. And then John Jewell, in what he likes to chalk up to divine inspiration, gets an idea. And as his fellows hear it, they agree--this is a GREAT idea. And having agreed on this, they get to work on their arguments in favor this idea, which, they hope, will disarm the Puritans.
Looking forward to reading about this idea! Will it give the Libertines the edge they need against the Puritans?

Space Oddity said:
Yes, Henry and Mary see this as a brilliant way to kill TWO birds with one stone--the Borderers lose a lot of ruffians, and Ireland... well gets a lot of new ruffians, but ruffians with a vested interest in keeping the local ruffians down.
I'm sure this totally won't blow up in everyone's faces a few centuries down the line.

Space Oddity said:
--At the opening of the latest session of the Council of Mantua, Pope Pius begins with a ringing denunciation of the man he declares the most awful prince in Christendom, a man who, despite his claims of loyalty to the Catholic Church, serves only himself--your friend and mine, Philip II of Spain.
I'm very impressed by the Pope's cunning realpolitik. Forget Germany, he's going to consolidate his temporal power in Italy by antagonizing the Catholic monarch with whom he is arguably on the best terms - because he can afford to. After all, what is Philip going to do about this, convert? Ha! He's a Hapsburg, they don't know the meaning of the word.

Space Oddity said:
But that hardly means that matters are incredibly better in Spain's other Italian holdings--even Sardinia sees a few angry remonstrances, while Naples and Sicily see riots and protests, with unruly crowds loudly declaring their undying loyalty to "Good King Charles". (It is a matter of debate--both then and among future historians--whether the crowds are referring to Charles V & I, or Charles, Prince of the Asturias. Or both.)
Although we know that Charles, Prince of the Asturias, will not become King of Naples, since "Carlo V di Napoli", reigning in 1643, is quoted elsewhere, and HRE Charles V was also Charles IV of Naples.

Space Oddity said:
King Henri will be informed of this by a humble Corsican nobleman of small standing, Gabriele Buonaparte, sent largely because he's viewed as reputable enough not to be insulting to his majesty, but minor enough that he's not dangerous--further, his interests in Corsica are insignificant enough that he really isn't going to lose anything by heading off for France.
Must be a hereditary trait. We'll see if he can achieve as much success in la Métropole as an OTL descendant of his.

Space Oddity said:
Meanwhile, in Yemen, the Turkish forces there that have been fighting off the rebels lead by Al-Mutahhar find themselves in hot water as the reinforcements they were expecting don't arrive. The resulting victory greatly encourages the Yemeni Imam, who now hopes to liberate the Yemeni from the Turkish yoke within a year, and is even starting to get... bigger ideas.
Looks like Ottoman control and influence around the Mandeb Strait is about to become a lot more precarious. That should be exciting!

Space Oddity said:
A resistance led by priests, Spaniards not in line with the local elites backing the Cortez brothers, and native nobles who are justifiably nervous about how things may go for them in a Mexico without Spanish protection gathers together, choosing for a figurehead a native convert to Catholicism of impeccable lineage and significant wealth, one Tlacahuepan Ihualicahuaca, or as the Spanish know him, Pedro de Moctezuma, and yes, of those Moctezumas. Thus begins the strangest second round in a family feud imaginable...
It amuses me greatly that this second round will have each patriarch on the opposite side of the conflict from the first go-round...
 
And now, some replies!

Also -- are we seeing foreshadowing that Leandro's Rosicrucian zealotry will be New World-focused, unlike Sebastian and Morocco OTL?

Leandro is zealous about a lot of things.

I prefer it when the King is mad with tolerance instead of just plain mad, but I can see why the closest thing to the couple with a combo voice message can get grating. Still, poor Janos Henrik.

Indeed.

What's interesting is your interpretation of the Shingen-Kenshin relationship, going with the traditional warrior's respect route compared to the more revisionist idea of Kenshin hating Shingen for his ambition and generally not being a great dude. After all, Katsuyori's mother was a teenager version of Yoshinari's in terms of Daimyo taking concubines after killing rivals. My own view is that Kenshin hated Shingen the Man but he had this fascination with Shingen the Phenomenon, the man who faced him down in Kawanakakajima and the great nemesis who symbolised the evils plaguing Japan. It'll be interesting to see whether this rivalry will actually see a culmination here, especially once Shingen and Nobunaga get to Kyoto.

To be fair, Kenshin is a very TOUGH guy to read--that said, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that whatever his feelings about Shingen were, the rivalry was something he took seriously, and very... personally.

Selim's killing of his last son seems a bit much. Granted, he was a rebel, killed his brother, and wasn't that great, but throwing the succession into doubt seems more emotional than pragmatic.

The thing is, the succession would still be in doubt even if he were alive--being respected was a big part of getting the throne at this point (honestly, that wouldn't change until post-Murad). Which isn't to say this is a great place to be...

2) the Miyoshi letter. How .... convenient... Why, it couldn't have been better if Oda dictated it himself. :) (Seriously, is this letter real ittl or forged?)

Debated to this day ITL. Yeah, it's convenient, but the Miyoshi were pretty hubristic and incompetent by this point.

4) Italy unified by the Pope? Centuries early? Sure looks like where Italy is headed.

In the unlikely event that Pius manages to kick the Spanish out of all Italy, everything will likely devolve upon local nobles. So, in fact you're more likely to see an even MORE splintered Italy than IOTL if that goes down.

As much as I like Charles 'the Rouge Prince' Habsburg, I just don't think even he can put everything back the way it was.

You assume he wants to...


As for the House of Osman... If Selim manages to cling to life he might be able to sire a child or two, but the tradition of brother killing will have to be put on hold since there's too many risks of the house dying out because of it. Maybe he'll do something radical like declaring a daughter as his heir...

He really can't do that. While woman could be surprisingly powerful amongst the Ottomans

Still, it does seem pretty dumb to take most of your army out the Low Countries RIGHT when the French were about to invade. Probably would've been smarter to stymie the French then head to Spain.

He didn't take most of the army out. In fact most of it was there when the invasion happened. The fact was, Charles REALLY didn't have enough of the skilled men necessary to do much more than blunt the advance.

In addition to the effect this pamphlet has on society and diplomacy in the "present", I can't help but picture how it will influence historians in the centuries to come. This paragraph hammers home how the pamphlet manages to take a kernel of truth and stretch it into some of the tallest tales ever recorded. The question is going to be where the kernel ends and where the exaggeration begins, and historians with an agenda (pardon my redundancy) will no doubt find it best suits their purposes to be quite arbitrary in marking the dividing line.

Oh, yeah.

Not if young Louise isn't any more fecund than her OTL sister...

Actually, this is his second marriage--even if he has no children by her, the succession of the Montpensier Bourbons is secure.

For now.


Well! :eek: This was certainly shocking, although I suppose it wasn't entirely unexpected - death by childbirth was quite common in those days, after all. In any event, that's one more Tudor down, three more to go - interesting that (miscarriage aside) the first two of Anne's children to die were her two youngest. I can't imagine what Anne feels, herself being quite old by now (over 65, assuming she was born in 1501) and having survived yet another child - this one in the prime of her life.

Not in childbirth. Just while pregnant, of completely unconnected disease.

Sometimes, life is awful.


Why does something tell me Leander's religious devotion doesn't quite extend to cover the directive to be fruitful and multiply?

Leandro is... special.

I don't suppose this might be a scene in a future instalment of Aske Away!, by any chance? :)

Sadly no. Charles Stuart is not going anywhere.

I'm very impressed by the Pope's cunning realpolitik. Forget Germany, he's going to consolidate his temporal power in Italy by antagonizing the Catholic monarch with whom he is arguably on the best terms - because he can afford to. After all, what is Philip going to do about this, convert? Ha! He's a Hapsburg, they don't know the meaning of the word.

Believe it or not, the Hapsburgs' relations with Pope around this period were frequently rather poor. Hell, IOTL Paul IV did something quite similar in the 1550s.

It didn't go very well for him, mind you.

It amuses me greatly that this second round will have each patriarch on the opposite side of the conflict from the first go-round...

There's more irony yet to come.
 
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Great to see this back! Wow, that's a lot of history for one year.

"Feelthy Peectures?" :p

peter-arno-feelthy-peectures-new-yorker-cartoon.jpg


Man, I don't like Charles II that much myself, but this is really piling it on the poor guy. Really interested to see how things play out in the Spanish Americas... sometime in 2016? :)
 
To be fair, Kenshin is a very TOUGH guy to read--that said, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that whatever his feelings about Shingen were, the rivalry was something he took seriously, and very... personally.

Oh definitely, that's one of the problems with reading up on Sengoku Japan, at least from an Anglophone perspective, in that you have to rely on figuring out who exactly the main players are as people when looking at their personality quirks. Kenshin Uesugi is probably one of the few Daimyo who really took the Bushido principle to heart in terms of loyalty, although then again it wasn't as if he could expand further if he wanted to.

EDIT: Kenshin probably saw his rivalry in Shingen in a lot of terms. Battle of wills, intelligence, morality, and sees it as the epic war of their time. It must be won with swords and righteousness, not by starving the people of his enemy like the Hojo would do.

Not in childbirth. Just while pregnant, of completely unconnected disease.

Sometimes, life is awful.

I do wonder if this little heartbreak is going to send Anne to the grave. For all that it seems like Margaret's...sunniness grated on her older siblings, she was the baby of the family, and Anne is probably taking it a lot harder since this is another one of her children dying, this one due to the joys of campaigning in Hungary.

Mind you, part of me thinks this is leading up the the Henry/Edward split you were playing with earlier. The Borderer ruffians are likely to mess up Edward's neat little plan, something's bound to go wrong, and when it all goes a bit pear-shaped, tensions are going to rise between the brothers again. After all, Henry never really lost his sense that true loyalty to the Tudor family basically means doing what he wants every time without question, and Edward basically had to be told by his mother and mistress that it's better to suck it up than deal with what happens when a King's starts Insisting/brothers bicker.

That's going to lead to some punch-up, not violent in nature of Edward working with an enemy, but something that constitutes a lot of smart people in Court getting very worried about their mutual silent treatment.
 
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