"Now Blooms the Tudor Rose."

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Space Oddity, Jun 4, 2011.

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  1. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

    Jul 19, 2010
    Kings of Denmark are at this point in history, elected--however, it is invariably the eldest son or brother of the late king. Christian's already had quite a few children, so while it's possible that Mary's heirs might wind up the throne--just damned unlikely.

    As for John--he's a real historical figure, though in real life he never married and left no issue.
  2. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

    Jul 19, 2010
    Go ahead. I'd love to see it.
  3. Barbarossa Rotbart Well-Known Member

    Feb 1, 2011
    IOTL John became Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Haderslebenand was very popular. He got also involved with the Reformation, founded several social institutions and reformed the legal system in his duchy. All his judgments have published in a book.

    I hope that his marriage with Mary Tudor (who IOTL died of cancer) will not change this and gives him an heir. It would really be ironic if he convinces her to join the protestant cause.
  4. RyuDrago Italian? Yes, but also Roman

    Nov 30, 2010
    In fact, Mary wasn't sterile, so in Denmark could still have a more healthy life which could permit to give her birth to a son. And if perhaps her husband died suddenly and there aren't for other mysterious ways other direct heirs for the Danish throne, she could become a regent and Denmark could return to Catholicism as well...
  5. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

    Jul 19, 2010
    Again, unlikely. Christian has plenty of children, and another brother.
  6. Welshroyalhistory Well-Known Member

    Jun 11, 2011
    Taking some of the aggression out of this thread.....

    This is a fantastic thread but I am concerned at the aggression that is directed towards Mary Tudor by her father. I am not sure of the motivation for this.
    To my mind, the birth of a son in 1533 would effectively restrict the Reformation as opposed to enabling it, Henry was a man of big visions but had little inclination towards the detail, I think one of the reasons why both he and Anne became obsessive about the various Acts in 1534/1535 was the failure by Anne to give him a son which meant that securing acceptance of Elizabeth’s succession all the greater. I have always felt Anne’s conduct in this time betrays her own insecurity about her failure to have a son.
    Such insecurity wouldn’t exist if Anne had given birth to a healthy son in 1533, for Henry the life’s dream would have been achieved and I can’t help but think that Henry would have lost a certain amount of passion for the Reformation. Would he have continued to push leading to the execution of many of his close friends? Would the close friends not have a crisis of conscience also, they were 16th century men, they may have found the idea of a royal divorce deplorable but was a woman ruler preferable? As loathsome as Queen Anne might be, her son was still a son; he offered stability in a way that few of that era would have believed was possible with a female ruler. Would not some of those who opposed the divorce suddenly start to waiver?
    In a strange way the birth of a son to Henry and Anne might have been the best thing for Mary as it would remove her as threat, in contrast with just Elizabeth, she was always a threat but a son was always going to be favoured, Mary herself knew this, that is why she rejoiced with the birth of Elizabeth. Would we not have seen a quicker break in Mary’s resolve if Anne gave birth to a healthy son in 1533? My guess is that we would have, perhaps a kind word by the Imperial Ambassador to suck it up and try and focus on a foreign marriage to secure her long term future.
    Mccarthypaddy1216 likes this.
  7. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

    Jul 19, 2010
    The thing is, most of those acts you mentioned were already in the works in 1533--when they both thought they WERE going to have a son. As I noted, Henry had just suffered through having what should have been a fairly routine annulment turn into a lengthy ordeal, and he DID NOT cotton to that--he was damned if he was ever going to let a Pope put him in that situation ever again. Further, Anne, Cramner, and Cromwell all had his ear at this point, and if there was one thing they were all in agreement in it was--'Reformation GOOD!' As for hesitating about his friends' lives--by this point, Henry has already ruined Wolsley, a man who was almost like a father to him, and who was only spared execution by dying in prison. While it'd be nice to think that having to kill More would snap him out of it, the fact is, it didn't IOTL. And remember--More and Fisher's biggest objections weren't to the annulment and the marriage--they didn't like that, but they could accept it--it was the King's supremacy. Changing the baby's sex isn't going to change that. (In point of fact, Fisher and More had no way of knowing that Anne wasn't going to pop out a boy in a year or two. This was pure principle for them.)

    As for Mary--the problem is, Henry's 'declare your own annulment' approach resulted in a highly ambiguous situation. If you accept it--great, Henry's got a male heir! If you don't--Henry's got a bastard he thinks is a male heir--and a highly convenient, marrigable daughter who's the real heir. Whose rights there for must naturally be respected, especially if she can marry your son/puppet. And Henry and his entire court knows this. And as for her giving it up earlier--I considered that, actually, but Mary hates Anne with a passion and that is no doubt informing her descisions. I've no doubt that Chapuys ITTL was advising her to, as you say, suck it up, and hope for the best--but Mary is as stubborn as both her parents, and would view such an action as a betrayal of her mother. It'll take some pretty powerful despair to get her to crack, which is ultimately, what I had happening.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2011
  8. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

    Jul 19, 2010
    1540--Part 2: The Third Pilgrimage of the Faithful

    --Biguy's associates each make their way to a different location--Tempast to Chester, Hamilton to Yorkshire, and Lumley to Leeds--gathering followers along the way, while Biguy marches on London. The Privy Council is in panic. They send out Norfolk, Shrewsbury, and Suffolk with troops, and start debating what to do next. They're hoping the answer is 'not die'.

    --Anne has delivered twins--a boy and a girl--who, if somewhat small, seem all right. It has been her most difficult delivery, and she is left to rest and recuperate. Which she does, until someone lets the news of Biguy's Pilgrimage slip. Anne gets out of bed, gets into something presentable, and drags herself to the Council meeting, where she immediately gives them a piece of her mind. What is going on? Why was she not told as soon as possible? Did they think they were helping her? The Council is nervous--as terrifying as Henry can be at times, Anne is arguably worse, since when she gets mad, she always means it--and of course, very conciliatory. Once Anne has calmed down, she quietly begins to provide some leadership, getting everyone to work on reminding people that they're in control, even if a mob of Northern Catholics are marching towards London.

    --Biguy's march hits something of a snag when it arrives in Cambridge. You see, Biguy and his followers have failed to consider something. It's only natural. Most of them don't travel that much, and those that do--such as Biguy--are of a slightly fanatical mindset, and tend to hang out with people with the same opinions. The present situation is not very popular up north. It is less unpopular in the South, which, anyway, views these damned Pilgrimages as a lot of obnoxious carrying-on by the Northerners, and a threat against their King and his good Queen. True, they may not have thought much of Anne at first, but it's been awhile, and she's grown on them. They definitely aren't going to let her get pushed around by a bunch of rowdy Northerners! And so, in Cambridge, a large mob has gathered to duke it out with Biguy's large mob, and may the best mob win. While they have limited success--one of the reason the Pilgrimages are so feared is that the North is encouraged to arm itself to discourage Scottish raids--they do delay Biguy long enough for Norfolk's troops to arrive. Biguy's followers are forced to scurry back to Lincolnshire. Biguy is not among them, having died in the fighting.

    --Rumor of the brawl in Cambridge passes quickly throughout the North, often outrunning the rather unwieldy "armies" of Pilgrims. For many this is all the encouragement they need. While the North is far more conservative than the South, it is filled with people who are simply sick of the Pilgrimages. They're disorderly, and they result in the Duke of Norfolk hanging people. Leeds, which shut the gate on Darcy's Pilgrimage, takes up arms against Biguy's when it arrives--the Pilgrims are repulsed, with their leader Lumley captured. In Yorkshire, which has earlier surrendered, citizens begin to fight back--Hamilton eventually crushes it, and winds up hanging some of the ringleaders, but it badly saps his strength. Chester, likewise captured early, remains secure, though troubled by loyalist partisans bushwacking scouts. And that is not all. The North is awash in blood, as old feuds are settled in the name of loyalty to the old faith, or the King. And in London, angry mobs gather, shouting out 'God save the king! The devil take the pope!', and their eyes peeled for monks, friars, and Catholics. Needless to say, a few dozen people wind up getting killed, but the Privy Council is looking on the good side--the country's coming around to their way of thinking. Or parts of it, at least.

    --As peace returns to London, the twins are christened Margaret and Thomas. They will be Anne's last children--her age aside, Henry is now more or less incapable of fathering offspring.

    --One by one, the Pilgrimage's strongholds fall. Norfolk takes Lincolnshire, Suffolk takes Yorkshire, and Shrewsbury captures Chester. The third Pilgrimage, after such a promisng start, has turned into the bloodiest failure yet. And Henry, his health crisis past, wants to make it extra bloody. He wants family of Pilgrims executed. He wants friends of Pilgrims executed. He wants friends of family of Pilgrims executed, and he wants the family of friends executed as well, if that's possible. Needless to say, the more moderate portions of the council attempt to rein in his... more violent impulses, and while they do succeed somewhat, a lot of people are killed for the crime of being tangentially connected to the Pilgrimage. Or, more exactly, they are killed for the crime of 'aiding rebels', or 'wishing ill to the king' or... well, the list goes on. And of course, there are witnesses for every charge.

    Strangely enough, many names repeat among the witnesses, including the ubiquitous Edward and Thomas Seymour.

    --SCENE FROM 'ATTABOY, 'ENRY' (1970)

    CARDINAL WOLSLEY walks into a small office. A scroll hangs from the wall 'Seymour and Seymour--Professional Witnesses'. He rings a bell on the desk, and then glances around the room. Various instruments of torture are hung on the walls. CUT BACK to Wolsley. EDMUND SEYMOUR, and his brother THOMAS have appeared. They are a pair of vaguely threatening men. Edmund seems a bit more dapper than the more hulking Thomas.

    EDMUND. (Cockney accent) Can I help you sir?

    Wolsley leaps in alarm. Throughout the scene his mannerisms are rather effeminate.

    WOLSELY. Oh, yes. I--I need help for a trial.

    EDMUND. Well, then you've come to the right place, sir. Nobody comes to trial without going to the firm of Seymour, and Seymour.

    THOMAS. (reciting) 'Our prices can't be beat, but those that have it coming most certainly can be."

    WOLSLEY. (nervous) Well... you seem very... enthusiastic...

    EDMUND. We hanker to be of service to the cause of justice, sir. Now, then, what charge do you want? Treason...?

    THOMAS. (reciting) Whilst we were drinking together in a tavern, we did overhear that party state ill intentions to the king...

    WOLSLEY. What? No... no... I think you...

    EDMUND. Ahh. Too heavy. Right. Conspiracy then? Very light charge. Gets them in jail, and--well, we just let nature take it's course.

    THOMAS. (reciting) Whilst we were drinking together in a tavern, this party did attempt to invengle us in a wicked design...

    WOLSLEY. I... I don't think you gentlemen understand.

    EDMUND. You're right, sir. Conspiracy is a crap charge. We only use it on them who can't afford better. How about espionage? That's a good charge. Has just the right sort of weight to it.

    THOMAS. (reciting) Whilst we were drinking together in a tavern with a Spaniard, he happened to say that this party is in the employ of his master, the King of Spain...

    WOLSLEY. No. No... This is for a woman...

    EDMUND. Ahhh. One of those! Understood, sir. One charge of adultery, coming right up.

    THOMAS. (reciting) Whilst we were drinking together in a tavern, a soldier did say that this lady did make lewd advances to him, and allowed him carnal knowledge...

    WOLSLEY. An old woman!

    EDMUND. Oh! Understood, sir. Witchcraft. Takes out an old dame, every time.

    THOMAS. (reciting) Whilst we were drinking together in a tavern, Satan did say to us that this woman was his loyal thrawl, to whom he had gifted supernatural might...

    WOLSLEY. I want her protected! Not sentenced!

    The Seymours stare at Wolsley in shock. Then they frown.

    EDMUND. Oh, one of those, eh?

    THOMAS. (shaking head) Should have known...

    EDMUND. Listen here, sir, I don't know what country you think you're in, but this is England and if King Henry's put you on the block, you must be guilty of something.

    THOMAS. Stands to reason.

    EDMUND. (puffing out chest) Our job is to make sure that this is the case. And allow me to state, we are the best there is.

    THOMAS. Second to none.

    EDMUND. And you would have us ruin our reputation--nay, our very integrity--by appearing for the defense?

    THOMAS. How dare you!

    EDMUND. (waving his hand angrily) Out with you, sir, out with you! You sicken me!

    THOMAS. And don't come back!

    Wolsley backs out of the shop. As soon as he's gone, Thomas looks at Edmund.

    THOMAS. Want me to rough him up some?

    EDMUND. Nahh, that was Wolsley. We're witnessing him commit treason next week, remember?

    THOMAS. Oh, right. (scratches head) They kind of blend into one another, after awhile.
  9. Elfwine Byzantophilic Brony

    Dec 18, 2010
    West of Constantinople
    That dialogue was inspired. :D
  10. Barbarossa Rotbart Well-Known Member

    Feb 1, 2011
    That dialogue reminds me of Blackadder.
  11. SavoyTruffle Rabbit Tank

    Sep 14, 2010
    I think that was the point.
  12. stevep Member

    Mar 21, 2006
    Space Oddity

    Good to see Anne pulling through and then putting some backbone into the Privy council. Twins make it pretty damned certain she's going to be the mother of the next monarch. Depending on how much is known about how important a source of stability she has been but even just that she has given the king several heirs and is in the midst of labour again when the rebellion strikes I could easily see a clear wave of support for her, plus the desire for peace and stability.

    Pity about Henry's insistence on the extra bloodshed afterwards. Ironic in that despite him being only a lukewarm 'Protestant' he's probably done as much as Anne to make sure Catholicism is going to be very minor in England for the near future at least. Can't see many people raising their heads above the parapets and probably going to be the completion of the dissolution of the last of the monasteries now.

    Given that the last hope of an internal revival of Catholicism seems to have clearly passed and that Henry's being so bloody I wonder what the foreign reaction will be? There might be a danger this will trigger something.

  13. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

    Jul 19, 2010

    --In England, the year starts off with the festive execution of Stephan Hamilton, who recieves the full traitor's death. Hamilton is the most hated of all of Biguy's rebels, for his "execution" of leader's of the counter-rebellion, and thus, his gory hideous death is met with great rejoicing.

    --The bloody happenings in England are something of a sideshow to much of Europe. Francois and Charles' rapprochement is rapidly failing, as Francois can't give up France's interests in Italy, Charles' can't help but want to play games, and neither can stand the other. As the pair prepare for another conflict, Charles starts leaning on various Protestant princes in his vast domains, hoping to stifle resistance before it starts, as well as stepping up his little war to acquire Gelre, AND pursuing his other great love, war against Muslims. (Hey, it's a busy life being the King of Spain AND the Holy Roman Emperor.) All of Europe begins to maneuver as its two greatest Kings prepare for war...

    --The infinitely charming William the Rich is wed via proxy to the twelve-year old Jeanne d'Albret, who throws an understandable hissy during the ceremony[1], while wedding his sister Amalia to French prince of the blood, François de Bourbon, Count of Enghien[2]. This is all part of William's scheme to to get French support in his war to claim his questionable birthright, Gelre, from its even more questionable claimant, Emperor Charles. At the wedding, Amalia's sister Anne gets the notice of King Francois, who sends a groom to enquire if she'd be willing to spend a little... quality time with him. Said groom gets a slap for his troubles, by most accounts.

    --The dissolution of the monasteries continues. Henry has funnelled a good portion of the proceeds into a series of forts near the Channel, a bigger navy--and quite a few castles, including the gigantic Nonsuch Palace, Henry's largely self-designed monument to himself. Anne has managed to funnel another good portion into the various "Queen's Colleges" and "Queen's Hospitals" that have often taken over the sites of various monasteries. Cromwell has funneled most of the remainder into the governing of England, with a nice little bit extra going into his pocket. England's great monastic tradition is essentially finished, though many former monks and nuns are now enjoying pensions. In other news, Henry's lengthy policy towards Ireland finally pays off--he's established enough control to be named King of Ireland by right of conquest. He briefly toys with giving young Arthur Fitzroy the crown, but decides against it. And so England's long dream to rule over a nearby island that wants little to do with it is fulfilled. For now.

    --Mary is doing her best to get used to her new state in life, though it's proving hard. Her husband, John is doing his best to accomodate her, despite differences of faith--though John was raised a Catholic and is in fact, trying to quietly--well, make her more sympathetic to Lutheranism. This is also proving hard. Still, both sides appreciate the fact that the other is trying. That counts for something.

    --Henry's health continues to decline, though the man's natural vigor seems to be slowing it somewhat. (This is more like an object hurled from a high tower hitting terminal velocity than any sort of recovery.) The headaches are proving the most constant problem. The side-effect of this is that Anne is now attending Privy Council meetings regularly, as Henry never knows when she might have to take over as Regent for awhile. Indeed, sometimes, he's been incapictated in the middle of a meeting. As the countdown to Henry's death drags on, it seems very likely that she'll be formal Regent for Prince Henry during his almost certain minority. Norfolk is less keen on this idea. He loves his cousin dearly, of course, but damn it, some jobs are men's jobs, to his mind, and he thinks he's just the man for it. He broaches this subject to his occasional ally/enemy Cromwell. Cromwell can understand his viewpoint, to a degree--in Cromwell's mind, he's just the man for it himself. But Cromwell is more--political animal than Howard. He understands that his taking this role became virtually impossible after his resignation. That pretty much leaves it between Anne and Howard, and given that choice, he'll take Anne. Howard as the most powerful man in the country is an option Cromwell finds... uneasy. So, Cromwell nods, smiles, promises his support, and begins to think of some way to clip Howard's wings, just a little. He doesn't want to completely ruin the man, after all--when you want the Council to see the wisdom of a little summary action against Popery, Howard's your guy. He just needs to be more... managable for the foreseeable future.

    --A new Imperial ambassador, François van der Delft[3], takes up his duties, after much pleading and begging on the Empire's part. With relations with France suddenly--ungood, Charles can't afford to not be on speaking terms with England. Indeed, despite their recent difficulties, he's hoping that he can rope Henry into another war with France, on the basis of their mutual hatred of King Francois. (Admittedly, it will be difficult, as he theoretically can't sign treaties with Henry as an excommunicated heretic, but then, Charles has a definite talent for getting around such technicalities.) France, meanwhile, is hoping they can get Henry onboard despite all the recent back-stabbing based on the recent anti-Hapsburg slant to England's foreign policy. Sadly for both parties, Anne has a great deal of influence on foreign policy at the moment, and among her many abilities is being able to really hold a grudge. Oh, the Empire and France can both dance and crawl all they want--indeed, she rather hopes they do--England's not getting directly involved in their little squabble if she can help it. Which she most certainly can.

    --King James V of Scotland suffers a grave disappointment--indeed, a personal tragedy--when his first and second legitmate sons die in a month of each other, leaving him heirless.[4] This is not the only disappointment he's had. It's becoming blatantly clear that France views the "Auld Alliance" as nothing more than a bargaining chip to gain English support, with Scotland's interests being largely beneath notice. This is bad enough. But James is getting... ideas. James, you see, is a good Catholic. And he's Henry's nephew. Now, Anne's children are all illegitimate Protestant bastards. Mary would be legitimate, but she's chosen to give up her claim to the throne, is now married to a Danish Lutheran, and likely to spawn more of the same. Suffolk's remaining children by the elder Mary are all girls, and Protestants to boot. So, as James sees it, he's now pretty much the lawful Catholic successor. And there's also James' little grudge on the man he blames for his father's death...

    Of course, James isn't so foolish as to think he could claim the throne of England with only the might of Scotland behind him. There's a reason the Auld Alliance came to be, after all. But still--if he could only get a foreign nation behind him... if a Pilgrimage of the Faithful allied with him... if... if...

    They're mad dreams. And James, in his better moments, knows they're mad dreams. But they persist. And they make James... a tad suggestible. A bit open to ideas he'd reject out of hand normally. And as his uncle has so amply demonstrated, when a man in that state of mind is a king... well, bad things happen.

    James' mother dies at the end of the year. He now has one less thing holding him back...
    [1] This bit is OTL. Ahh, royalty. Fun times. Fun times.
    [2] This bit isn't, obviously. For those wondering, Enghien never wed IOTL.
    [3]Chapuys' successor IOTL, albeit, at a much later date.
    [4] This happened OTL. I was tempted to fiddle with the happenings--butterflies, and so forth. So I flipped a coin a few times. It gave me the same results that happened in history.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2011
  14. stevep Member

    Mar 21, 2006
    Space Oddity

    Well war in the north is less of a problem that an invasion by one of the big two. Not sure what James's suggestibility means as to who might be encouraging it.

    One good thing about such a conflict is that it would hopefully unite England. After all it's been through a probably bloody foreign invasion is the last thing the north needs or wants.

    The fact he wants revenge on Henry, presuming that's who he blames for Flodden, despite him not being in the country at the time, suggests that if he moves it would be before Henry dies. Or do you mean the Earl of Surrey? [Can't be that as he's the Norfolk who was assassinated unless I've lost track].

  15. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

    Jul 19, 2010
    To clarify, the grudge is against Henry. And it is a grudge, not a 'burning desire for revenge'. James knows that what happened to his father was just business as usual, but emotionally, it still rankles having to play nice with his uncle.
  16. Jammy Grand Duke of Abingdon Donor

    Jun 12, 2006
    This is really good, im muchos impressed. Can't wait for more.

    Could you give a list of Henry's children, ages etc?

    Also, has he only got the one grandchild at the minute?
  17. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

    Jul 19, 2010
    Sure thing. What follows is a list of all of Henry's MAJOR children ITTL, and their status as of 1541. (Going into all the stillborn/lived for a week/month children he had with Catherine would be both time-consuming and pointless.)


    Mary Tudor (1516--)
    m. John of Denmark
    issue: none


    Henry Fitzroy (1519-1536)
    m. Mary Howard
    issue: Arthur Fitzroy (1536--)


    Henry Tudor (1533--)

    Elizabeth Tudor (1535--)

    Edward Tudor (1537--)

    Margaret Tudor (1540--)

    Thomas Tudor (1540--)

    *Marriage Annulled in Anglican Church, Issue Illegitimate
    **Mistress, Issue Illegitimate

    So, yes, only one grandchild at the moment.
    TheQueenInTheNorth and What if like this.
  18. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

    Jul 19, 2010

    --War between France and the Empire is all but inevitable. Indeed, the only reason it hasn't broken out already is that Francois doesn't think it would be chivalrous to attack Charles while he's fighting the Muslim hordes. Meanwhile, he also checks to make sure his alliance with the Ottomans is good--it is. Francois may be losing the race to claim the title 'major late Renaissance monarch most oblivious to his own amorality' to Henry but he's not giving up without a fight.

    --Scandal rocks Henry's court when gentleman of the chamber Thomas Culpepper is murdered by one Francis Dereham in a crowded tavern. Dereham--lately returned from the fighting in Ireland--spins a spicy little tale once caught. It seems that he and young Catherine Howard, lady-in-waiting, were... deeply involved back when she lived with her guardian, with Dereham seeing their relationship as 'man and wife'. Catherine's views appear to have been more mutable, as when Dereham returned to England, he found she was now deeply involved with Culpepper. At this point, Dereham's story becomes somewhat questionable--he claims he challenged Culpepper to a duel, and that Culpepper refused, then tried to stab him, forcing Dereham to kill him in self-defense. This doesn't match the recollections of most witnesses, who are fairly sure Dereham started the fight. That said, a love letter from Catherine to Culpepper does confirm some sort relationship between the two. When questioned, Catherine continuously changes her story, especially as old friends start popping up to shed light on the state of things between her and Dereham. Needless to state, by the time it's over and Dereham is executed for murder, she is viewed throughout England as 'a woman filled with licentiousness', and booted from the court. She retires back to the country, 'the most scandalous lady in England'. Henry takes the opportunity to upbraid his courtiers for their immoral way of life. He's got a title to uphold, after all.

    --Emperor Charles' squeezing of Protestants has created one interesting side-effect in neighboring Denmark. For years now, Charles has been playing diplomatic hardball, holding out the threat of Christian II's daughters (who, oddly enough, happen to be Charles' nieces) as a basis for concessions. Christian III is getting sick of this, and makes the preparation for war. But Christian is not Francois. He does not see war as a pretty game and launch invasions. Christian's war will be simple, elegant, and in many respects, quite brutal.

    --Needless to say, someone has to wind up taking the fallout from the Catherine Howard affair--besides Catherine, of course. And that someone happens to be... Henry Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk, who was, after all, acting as something of a patron to the girl. Surrounded by unseemly rumors, Howard quits the court for a while, retiring to his estates to sulk, and write poetry[1]. Thomas Cromwell and Anne share a mutual sigh of relief.

    --Ambassador van der Delft writes to the Emperor on the Tudor children. Even though he's writing to Charles, and thus puts the expected scorn on "that woman", he is, it appears, quite charmed. Henry and Elizabeth, he states, are intelligent, good-natured, and sociable, as is their nephew Arthur, who van der Delft confesses he at first mistook for their sibling 'for he is as close to the Prince as a brother.' Edward is more diffident then his older siblings, but still seems bright 'speaking as a child far older than his years'. That stated, he notes that Henry seems rather wary of the child, as opposed to his siblings. Court rumors state that this is because at his first public appearance, Edward shrieked in horror when forced to approach the King, and that Henry has never forgiven his little son this.

    --Francois begins the latest Italian War by sending his troops into Italy and the Low Countries simultaneously. England responds by sending Sir John Wallop to Calais--just to make sure nobody gets any ideas. Denmark takes the opportunity to declare war on the Empire as well, which largely boils down to closing the straits to Dutch shipping. Meanwhile, William the Rich declares war, eager to regain his theoretical birthright. Charles gears down for another grind against the French menace.

    --James V and Marie of Guise have their third child--a girl who is quickly named Mary. While somewhat disappointed, James still holds out hope for a son. James has also been in semi-secret discussions with Imperial agents about replacing the Auld Alliance with a shiny new Imperial one. Charles, through his representives, heavily implies that he's also aware of James' theoretical place on the line of succession from a Catholic point of view--and that he might be willing to support that place in the near future. Maybe. James replies that he might just appreciate such help. Perhaps. Needless to say, nothing on either side is definite--indeed, both go out of their way to be ambiguous and evasive in their language, as too apparent a statement on the subject could put them in the other party's power.

    But they're talking. This is quite dangerous.

    [1]Believe it or not, Henry Howard was one of the men who jumpstarted the English Renaissance, inventing a little sonnet form in his translations of Petrarch that would be adopted by a certain fellow we call Will Shakespeare.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  19. Historico Member

    Nov 23, 2004
    Nice take on an alternate Culpepper/Howard Affair, I am still waiting to see if all these added stresses see to an earlier demise to Henry or whether he holds out for five more years as IOTL. Henry, Prince of Wales should be less controlled by his Lord Protector and Privy Council if he doesn't predecesease his father. All I know is, that we have to end up with an King Arthur I somehow lol...Keep it comming:D
  20. Space Oddity That One Guy. You Know Who I Mean.

    Jul 19, 2010
    Again thanks. Join us for next installment, where Charles and Francois continue their latest war, James V continues to flirt with danger, and somebody dies.

    Well, okay, lots of people die, but this guy is somebody important.
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