Yeah, that's going to be pretty ugly to think about. But I must ask something. Do you think there will be a divide between the states that merely tolerated slavery's existence and wasn't the dominant part of society, or rather eaten, slept, and breathed (ie western VA, NC, TN, KY, possibly Arkansas and Indian Territory, and Arizona and Baja California) and the rest of the Confederacy? A Confederate Civil War would be quite interesting if it comes down to it and subvert most expectations due to it being a subversion of what usually happens in CSA victory TLs.
Nothing For Which to Apologize: Ambition and Loathing in the New South
- Thread starter dcharles
- Start date
This thread is interesting as I am currently reading and listening a bit to William Marvel's work. Now Marvel is not a neo-confederate. He openly argues the war was over slavery. But his civil libertarianism (I assume that is the ideology that motivates him, but he is not as crude as Misean critics of the Union. Also the guy does know how to write and speak, and does do some impressive original source research ) leads him to be severely cynical with the USA war effort and accept secession as a right and legal under the US Constitution. One of his more problematic for me arguments in Mr. Lincoln Goes to War is that while one cannot argue that every alternative history if no civil war happened would be better than what took place, he does not believe it would be worse. I question that, and I am glad for thread like this that help formulate some thoughts on it (though in this case the war still took place and south just won. He argues for no war, Lincoln just accepting the loss of the seven deep south states). I think the most important point is giving indicators that the USA itself would be a worse place in this scenario (more institutionally racist).
It also is funny when I read supporters of gradual compensated emancipation arguing that it would had been better for US race relations (Marvel posit it as hypothesis though he is not willing to say if he believes it would be. To his defense he does openly argue that any thoughts on the morality of the civil war do rest of solving the insoluble equation in his mind of weighting the lives of the 620000 that died in the war vs. the millions that would stay in bondage for three-four generations if it did not happen), when the example of Brazil pretty much shows that no, you would more or less get the same bad result with the de jure emancipation we got from the war.
So I think the bad here are realistic. Open Legal Chattel Slavery could and did survive into the 20th century (Mauritania), Leopold of Belgium was permitted to run what was a massive plantation into the 20th century, and slave labor work fine for the crude industrialization practiced by the USSR and others.
The good news is that I expect the good to also be realistic. That might mean lots of tragedy, lots of slow reform, lot of violent revolt, but ultimately some catharsis.
It also is funny when I read supporters of gradual compensated emancipation arguing that it would had been better for US race relations (Marvel posit it as hypothesis though he is not willing to say if he believes it would be. To his defense he does openly argue that any thoughts on the morality of the civil war do rest of solving the insoluble equation in his mind of weighting the lives of the 620000 that died in the war vs. the millions that would stay in bondage for three-four generations if it did not happen), when the example of Brazil pretty much shows that no, you would more or less get the same bad result with the de jure emancipation we got from the war.
So I think the bad here are realistic. Open Legal Chattel Slavery could and did survive into the 20th century (Mauritania), Leopold of Belgium was permitted to run what was a massive plantation into the 20th century, and slave labor work fine for the crude industrialization practiced by the USSR and others.
The good news is that I expect the good to also be realistic. That might mean lots of tragedy, lots of slow reform, lot of violent revolt, but ultimately some catharsis.
dcharles
Banned
Thanks, but I gotta give all the credit to Grun here. Somehow, he unintentionally painted a picture of history's whitest white woman. I basically had no choice but to use it.
Definitely. I have a lot more in common with the black women at my office and at my parish than I do with a white person from Portland or Seattle, or for that matter a white person with a house on St. Charles Avenue.
Lived there from 1993-2005. Moved to the MS Coast for a better job market and lower cost of living.
The lower density/more green space aspect is great too. Not sure if that's a function of aging or if I just didn't know what I was missing.
oh, sick, more Gulfport or more Biloxi? beautiful area (shame about the beach’s water though)
West of Gulfport. Unfortunately the barrier islands trap all the sediment from the Jourdan, Wolf, and Biloxi rivers. A lot of people think it's the Mississippi but that's too far away.
But the real sad thing is all the great restaurants in downtown Gulfport being gone. Irish Coast Pub, El Agave, Port City Cafe.
Yeah, Katrina wiped a lot of stuff out for sure. But if you’re ever by Biloxi and need a fancy place for an event, I can’t recommend Mary Mahoney’s enough.
Yeah, Katrina wiped a lot of stuff out for sure. But if you’re ever by Biloxi and need a fancy place for an event, I can’t recommend Mary Mahoney’s enough.
Those three were around until a few years ago. Not sure where they went - maybe the pandemic, maybe the owners got tired of doing it.
The original El Agave was destroyed by Katrina and reopened on 49 a few blocks south of Pass. It had an American flag with the twin towers instead of the stars. The owner was in the citizenship process on 9/11.
dcharles
Banned
I've been on this board for God knows how long...
Whether you realize or or not, Nivek, that's one of the nicest things anyone's ever said to me.
Thanks.
That was a pleasure buddy your TL so far has been very immersive and knowing it come a novel I know would have loved to read it as a complement to it, maybe the TL can inspire you to write it
Perhaps coincidentally Cinco de Mayo had it’s genesis as a novel too
I just got queasy writing the word “n***er”
dcharles
Banned
For... Fucking... Real.
Like I said, writing this as a novel set in the war period was psychologically taxing. There's just too much heartbreak for me to write, and during the war, there's no hope...
Mine was a spy thriller set in the 1970s with an extant CSA (why I’m a big fan of the ongoing “Regency Crisis” TL; it’s the story I wish I could write) and shit got very bleak very fast
dcharles
Banned
I'll have to check out "Regency Crisis," but a Tinker, Tailor, Souljah Spy sounds awesome.
You know I'm there for it, when and if you revisit it