Not the chinese...The Mongols in America

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I can see horses and poultry, but why would they bring cattle, pigs and sheep along? Maybe they'll pick up some pigs along the way from the Polynesians, but they are just as likely to eat them on the way. Remember this is a very long trip, and they don't plan to be pig farmers when they get there.

A Java expedition probably wont include any Koreans. The invasions of Japan was another story.

The other livestock would have been brought for dietary variety. They also would have probably replenished their stocks in Java. They would have eaten a good number of their animals, but not all of any one species I think.

They did not travel through Polynesia, so did not have a chance to pick up Polynesian pigs.

As cosmopolitan as the Yuan empire was, taking advantages of the skills and knowledge of the peoples they dominated, I expect that there would have been Koreans in the Fleet. They were masterful sailors and shipwrights.
 
Good WI.

I think the initial Mongol force having arrived in the New World as you detail it could, if stranded there without further reinforcement or support from the Khanates in Eurasia, still have a significant impact, perhaps forming its own state, going on a rampage through the New World that permanently alters the Native American political landscape and cultural and technological base before burning itself out and becoming assimilated.

Or, if Kublai learns of it, prolonged attempts at conquest followed by post Mongol collapse trade and colonization.

The usual scenario of Chinese influenced client states becoming local powers probably is less likely here due to the aggressiveness of the Mongols and the comparative technological and cultural differences. The Ming would set up tributaries. The Mongols will trample the Sapa Inca in a sack with their horses.

The Mongols if they do stay as a power in the New World, often included other tribes in their hordes. Natives from more aggressive tribes and cultures may end up included. An Anasazi Timur i Lenk perhaps?

Yup! they are stranded for all intents and purposes. I don't think a rampage would be in t the offing yet but the idea of an Eastern Khanate would probably be in the back of Shi-bi's mind. I think the direction this would take is local domination followed by intermarriage and some degree of assimilation. The new techs the Mongols bring with them would have major cultural impact on the local population so the assimilation would probable be mutual, leading to a new culture of some sort.

Eventual expansion is likely I think. and they would continue their habit of taking the best their subjects had to offer and adapting it to their needs. Their religious tolerance would also continue since there would be Buddhists, Taoists, Muslims, perhaps Nestorians as well as other beliefs represented.

Kublai thinks the force was lost, so we have 200 years of history in the Americas to re-write before the Europeans arrive.
 
Snotters Dad said:
Kublai thinks the force was lost, so we have 200 years of history in the Americas to re-write before the Europeans arrive.


200 years is what, 5 generations (using a standardized 40 year generation length)? Given the gulf in tech between them and native S. America, I'd guess they would start conquering - at first for food/defense/shelter -- defense in particular, as noted several thousand people popping up on your shores is likely to be viewed in a negative fashion. There would be despair too -- the horde is likely to outnumber any three or four allied cultures in the area.

It would seem that the Guaymi are the ones present in the area (aka the Ngobe) or the Chiriqui (if they aren't the same)
However, the earliest reference I can find is when the Spanish show up in 1520's... That 200 year difference means they might not even be there yet.


If the Mongols stay put, the spaniards are in for a true surprise eventually though. Care to start a TL on this? I'll be quite interested in how it goes.

However, if the Mongols follow the cultural tendencies I've seen in other research, they'll strive to maintain their way of life, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is nomadic horseback herders? And armed raiding on horseback of course.

Might they not, trying to preserve that lifestyle, drift northwards, following the coastal plains/etc. of the region up into the great plains, which would seem almost an ideal environment for them?
 
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200 years is what, 5 generations (using a standardized 40 year generation length)? Given the gulf in tech between them and native S. America, I'd guess they would start conquering - at first for food/defense/shelter -- defense in particular, as noted several thousand people popping up on your shores is likely to be viewed in a negative fashion. There would be despair too -- the horde is likely to outnumber any three or four allied cultures in the area.

It would seem that the Guaymi are the ones present in the area (aka the Ngobe) or the Chiriqui (if they aren't the same)
However, the earliest reference I can find is when the Spanish show up in 1520's... That 200 year difference means they might not even be there yet.


If the Mongols stay put, the spaniards are in for a true surprise eventually though. Care to start a TL on this? I'll be quite interested in how it goes.

However, if the Mongols follow the cultural tendencies I've seen in other research, they'll strive to maintain their way of life, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is nomadic horseback herders? And armed raiding on horseback of course.

Might they not, trying to preserve that lifestyle, drift northwards, following the coastal plains/etc. of the region up into the great plains, which would seem almost an ideal environment for them?

Thanks for your comments and interest.

The mongols lack one thing to sustain their culture in an unadulterated state, women. They would need to mix with the local population and integrate the two cultures to one extent or another. Their nomadic culture is still strong and they are an expansionistic lot so I can see them moving along the coast, and probably north. They would come in contact with the Maya, and depending on the result of that, may eventually reach the Valley of Mexico. But I think it might take some time.

I am not sure if they would stay put in Panama for a while, ride up the coast looking for greener pastures (so to speak) or try to sail along the coast after re-supplying their ships.

I am working on a time line in the background, and am using this thread to help direct my thinking, get new ideas and send up trial balloons.

I am grateful for every bit of input.
 

ninebucks

Banned
I don't think the Spanish would be surprised to see any Mongol hordes, they did, after all, think they were sailing to East Asia in the first place. Consider even when they did figure out they were on a separate continent, they didn't know how wide the Pacific was - I think the OTL lack of any signs of Asiatic civilisation were more surprising than anything else.
 
Not the Mongols we are used to.

As I continue to research this POD I have discovered some things which I think are not well known, or recognized.

The Mongols, in the time of Kublai, developed a powerful naval force. The battle which brought about the end of the Song dynasty was, in fact, a naval battle called the Battle of Yamen (alternately the battle of mount Ya), off the coast of Guangdong Province. This took place March 18, 1279.

Interestingly, the Yuan had a smaller force, and they applied some of the same tactics used in their cavalry battles, specifically the feigned retreat. Theis ships were equipped with trebuchets and catapults that fired bombs and they stationed archers on the sterncastles to rain arrows down in the Song ships. The Song court was so distraught at the sight that they threw themselves into the sea, the chief minister carrying the child emperor, Zhao Bing to his death.

The Mongols had needed to adapt their fighting style as they moved from the steppes into the fertile and well watered lands of China. They had to develope tactics and strategies to fight in a riverine environment, a warmer and more humid climate, mountains, jungles and at sea.

Needless to say, their invasions of Japan and the invasion of Java that is the POD for this thread, were amphibious assaults. The Mongols actually did fairly well in Japan, until they were done in by the weather and in Java until they were betrayed.

So, in 1293 they were no longer an army on horseback, but an accomplished amphibious landing force with the ships and technology to succeed.

N ot the Mongols we are used to.
 
The may separate over time. The ones wanting to preserve their traditional lifestyle may move onto the plains as sansahansan suggested, while some may stay as the ruling class over the other nationalities, in an agriculture-based society. After all, this is how some Chinese dynasties originated.
 
The Will of the Tngri

OK, I will be posting the first installment of a Yuan era expedition in the Americas. It is based on some of the ideas expressed in this thread. I hope there will be interest and comment.

The TL is entitled "The Will of the Tngri"
 

Solroc

Banned
Even though there is a rule against necromancing, I didn't do it. Plus, this is an interesting premise. If the Mongols somehow get blown of course or something and land in the Americas, where would they mostly land (assuming that only the winds pushing them there)?
 
The Mongols will be totally cut off from any contact with Asia. Given their numbers and lack of resources, how much can they change the indigenous culture?
 
The Mongols will be totally cut off from any contact with Asia. Given their numbers and lack of resources, how much can they change the indigenous culture?
Only in a few trivial ways such as introducing steel weapons, horses, wheeled vehicles, pigs and chicken, and ocean going ships. Also minor improvements to existing technology such as the composite bow. Perhaps adding paper manufacture, various scripts and if someone has the skills even a printing system. Really shouldn't make any significant impact.
 
KHAKHANATE BOOK I: THE RAVEN

The Khakhanate series by Thomas Lankenau is about a group of Mongols that are able to migrate to north america as the mongol empire falls apart, here's the summary from amazon
The race who conquered the known world...meets the New World.
In the last days of the Yuan Dynasty, a visionary Mongol leader struggles to save his command from destruction awaiting Mongols in a convulsing China.
A shaman from a northern tribe describes a land of endless prairie and scattered tribes far to the east across frozen seas. Can this be their salvation? Thus begins Book One of an epic adventure spanning continents and generations, a tale of exploration---both of lands exotic and of the human spirit---a tale of what might have been had Mongols discovered America before Europeans. Follow The Raven on dogsled, horse, cart and foot across frozen tundra and ice bridge on an intimately narrated adventure into an America of many thriving tribes, each with its own culture and reaction to the technologically and socially advanced Mongols---the race who had conquered the known world.
 
Thanks for beating a dead horse yet again. We've already told you it's ASB so early, and that's what it STILL IS. Take it to space bats. We have a place for it, and that's it.

Your Mongols will either sink in a storm or starve and run out of supplies becaues it's way too far, and, unlike Columbus, aren't ready. Especially since the Mongols certainly had no experience atall at sea. You get to make your choice of which way they die first... And there was a transoceanic ship loss rate of 90-100% at the era's sailing tech level.

And, I ALREADY TOLD YOU ON THE OTHER THEAD THAT Poul Anderson's POD is far later, a global nuclear war, which makes it tons more plausible several ways.

They also would have probably replenished their stocks in Java. They would have eaten a good number of their animals, but not all of any one species I think.
But, the "short" voyage TO Java would've used almost all their stores, so, why on earth wouldn't they run out of stores and die of hunger and thirst on the so long way?

Yes, I'm being hard on you, but, er, don't you deserve it?
 
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mongols in america

I'm Back...and more convinced than ever that the Yuan dynasty had the tech and resources for this to happen, even on an accidental basis.

I am tired of simple and uninformed dismissal of Chinese maritime skills. They invented almost all maritime advances ahead of the Europeans or the Arabs. Not all, but almost all.

I am European by descent btw and not a sinophile.
 
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