Not My Heifer Brainstorm (Results of Alternate Indo-European Migrations)

Is the Caucasus going to be predominantly IE-speaking? What about the Kartvelian, Northwest Caucasian, and other languages in the region? Sirkana (OTL Azerbaijan and Southern Georgia if I'm not mistaken) is home to the first group of IE speakers chronologically in the timeline. It would be cool to see Kartvelian languages perhaps spoken more to the east along with the Northwest Caucasian languages. Maybe as far as China before perhaps being further pushed by IE speakers.

Playing the Kartvelian languages would be cool.
 
Is the Caucasus going to be predominantly IE-speaking? What about the Kartvelian, Northwest Caucasian, and other languages in the region? Sirkana (OTL Azerbaijan and Southern Georgia if I'm not mistaken) is home to the first group of IE speakers chronologically in the timeline. It would be cool to see Kartvelian languages perhaps spoken more to the east along with the Northwest Caucasian languages. Maybe as far as China before perhaps being further pushed by IE speakers.

Playing the Kartvelian languages would be cool.

I have no idea what to do with Kartvelian languages, honestly. Part of me wants to move them into the Armenian Highland, part of me wants to wank a Kartvelian-speaking kingdom in Anatolia that maybe takes control of it for awhile (although Anatolia will ultimately be Indo-European), but idk.

As for the Northwest Caucasian languages, someone earlier in the thread suggested them colonizing the Dniester and Dnieper Rivers and migrating up to the Baltic. While I think it might be a tall order to have say, a Northwest Caucasian-speaking Baltic East Coast, I could see city states being founded by them that retain their unique identity for awhile, as least. I know that the Proto-Circassians are going to found a successor civilization to the Maykop in Crimea, and I’m interested in making them sort of like the Phoenicians of the Black Sea, and they may develop the Dnieper and Dniester trade routes as over land Baltic-Black Sea trade was actually very significant in the Bronze Age I think until the 4.2 kiloyear event.

The general area of Transcaucasia is going to be mostly Indo-Europeanized though, yes. Sírkana (Azerbaijan) is already Indo-European and so is Northern Dagestan and much of Chechnya and North Ossetia. Georgia will also be in time.
 
I have no idea what to do with Kartvelian languages, honestly. Part of me wants to move them into the Armenian Highland, part of me wants to wank a Kartvelian-speaking kingdom in Anatolia that maybe takes control of it for awhile (although Anatolia will ultimately be Indo-European), but idk.

As for the Northwest Caucasian languages, someone earlier in the thread suggested them colonizing the Dniester and Dnieper Rivers and migrating up to the Baltic. While I think it might be a tall order to have say, a Northwest Caucasian-speaking Baltic East Coast, I could see city states being founded by them that retain their unique identity for awhile, as least. I know that the Proto-Circassians are going to found a successor civilization to the Maykop in Crimea, and I’m interested in making them sort of like the Phoenicians of the Black Sea, and they may develop the Dnieper and Dniester trade routes as over land Baltic-Black Sea trade was actually very significant in the Bronze Age I think until the 4.2 kiloyear event.

The general area of Transcaucasia is going to be mostly Indo-Europeanized though, yes. Sírkana (Azerbaijan) is already Indo-European and so is Northern Dagestan and much of Chechnya and North Ossetia. Georgia will also be in time.
Maybe you could have the Northwest Caucasian lanaguages go extinct? There may also be surviving language families ATL that went extinct OTL.
 
Maybe you could have the Northwest Caucasian lanaguages go extinct? There may also be surviving language families ATL that went extinct OTL.

Nope. I like them, and I already have plans for them and their speakers :p

Northeast Caucasian languages on the other hand might not make it into the Modern Era ITTL. We'll have to see. I am fairly sure that Europe is going to be more linguistically diverse however, at least for awhile. I'm pretty certain I want much of Europe north of the Alps and west of the Carpathians to be Finno-Ugric speaking, with Indo-European "Anatolian" spoken east of the Carpathians and certainly in the Southwest Balkan area of former Yugoslavia, and of course further south as well in Greece as I have already mentioned. This would be as a result of the Corded Ware expansion never being halted by the migration of the Yamnaya peoples of the steppe and absorbing the migrations of the likely Para-Uralic Sredni Stog later on. I'm not sure what to do with Northwestern Europe, though. Carlos Quiles has recently spoken on his blog about how Vasconic toponyms were not found south of the Pyrenees until after the Roman conquest, suggesting a migration into the Pyrenees area which probably happened as a result of depopulation of Celtic-speaking Cantabrian tribes who fought a drawn out conflict with Rome that wasn't settled if I remember correctly until Octavian campaigned in the area. Furthermore, Basques are actually genetically related to Indo-Europeans, suggesting that population replacement took place without language replacement. So, a Vasconic-speaking France and British Isles is a possibility, especially if the Finno-Ugric Corded Ware peoples have a similar effect on the Basques as the Indo-Europeans did (population and cultural replacement with adoption of local language), I could see Proto-Basque becoming a widespread lingua franca as successor cultures develop and proliferate into the British Isles. I guess I haven't been able to dig up as much material on Proto-Basque as I'd like, and what I have apparently only reconstructs the language back to the 5th century BCE, which is a problem.

I'm also just barely beginning to read his work on the history of Scandinavia, and have very little thoughts on what to do there as well, so any ideas are welcome :)
 
I'm also just barely beginning to read his work on the history of Scandinavia, and have very little thoughts on what to do there as well, so any ideas are welcome :)
If Finno-Ugric is spoken west of the Carpathians and north of the Alps, and in the region is/was spoken OTL, then it is likely that Scandinavia would be Finno-Ugric speaking too.

Edit: On the other hand, perhaps Scandinavia could speak what was spoken before either Finno-Ugric or Indo-European.
 
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If Finno-Ugric is spoken west of the Carpathians and north of the Alps, and in the region is/was spoken OTL, then it is likely that Scandinavia would be Finno-Ugric speaking too.

Edit: On the other hand, perhaps Scandinavia could speak what was spoken before either Finno-Ugric or Indo-European.

I agree that they will probably end up speaking Finno-Ugric, but there is indeed quite a bit more to history than linguistics. I was just looking at the thread about muskoxen domestication, which got me thinking about potential domesticated in a non-Indo-European Europe. The Corded Ware peoples further south herded cattle, sheep, and goats, but those further north appear to have lived a more hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Furthermore, it has been talked about in this thread already how much of the clearing of forests in Europe would not happen without the Yamnaya, and possibly much of the subsequent development of connected civilizations. Thus, Europe north of the Alps and west of the Carpathians, the Finno-Ugric part of it might be a very, very different place.

I’ve toyed with the idea of fox domestication in my head, but what are some other crops and animals that might be given a chance ITTL that never IOTL?
 
European forest Clearing began with the LBK. By 3000 BCE, the dynamics of agriculture had led to population multiplying and Clearing more and more forest. Yamnaya expansion coincided with the spreading of the wheel, mostly, which made small hamlets in peripheral Land viable, thus yet more Clearing. If the wheel comes to Europe in the 4th millenniun, Lots of forests get cleared.
 
I agree that they will probably end up speaking Finno-Ugric, but there is indeed quite a bit more to history than linguistics. I was just looking at the thread about muskoxen domestication, which got me thinking about potential domesticated in a non-Indo-European Europe. The Corded Ware peoples further south herded cattle, sheep, and goats, but those further north appear to have lived a more hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Furthermore, it has been talked about in this thread already how much of the clearing of forests in Europe would not happen without the Yamnaya, and possibly much of the subsequent development of connected civilizations. Thus, Europe north of the Alps and west of the Carpathians, the Finno-Ugric part of it might be a very, very different place.

I’ve toyed with the idea of fox domestication in my head, but what are some other crops and animals that might be given a chance ITTL that never IOTL?
There used to be some kind of muskox in Norway during the last ice age, perhaps they could survive ATL and be domesticated.
Arten stammer opprinnelig fra Alaska, arktisk Canada og Grønland, men den har også blitt introdusert en rekke andre steder, herunder til Norge. Det er gjort fossile funn av moskusdyr i Norge, som viser at arten eller en svært nær slektning må ha levd naturlig her i siste istid, men den regnes altså ikke som en naturlig art her, selv om den er både ønsket og beskyttet av myndighetene.
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskusfe

Perhaps mink or some kind of mustelid could be domesticated for its skin/fur. Overtime they may be raised for both skin/fur aswell as meat. This may be a tall order though.
 
There used to be some kind of muskox in Norway during the last ice age, perhaps they could survive ATL and be domesticated.

https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskusfe

Perhaps mink or some kind of mustelid could be domesticated for its skin/fur. Overtime they may be raised for both skin/fur aswell as meat. This may be a tall order though.

The POD is a little late for surviving muskoxen in Europe, but not too late for the Inuit to domesticate them somehow or other. I just have to figure out how to get the butterflies that far out before colonization...
 
Will you have Dravidians migrate what is OTL Sri Lanka and have them build their civilization there? How would they interact with the Vedda? What about other migrations like the Austronesians? I know you wanted to have Austronesian speakers to settle there as well.
 
Will you have Dravidians migrate what is OTL Sri Lanka and have them build their civilization there? How would they interact with the Vedda? What about other migrations like the Austronesians? I know you wanted to have Austronesian speakers to settle there as well.

I have something else entirely planned for Sri Lanka, actually. It doesn't involve Dravidians or Austronesians, but rather Sino-Tibetans, but I'm afraid that's all I can say at the moment.

I am interested in getting Dravidian or Para-Dravidians to Madagascar and Southeast Africa, though. And potentially Arabia, at least in the Aden area, as I want there to be more interaction with India and Egypt ITTL.
 
I have something else entirely planned for Sri Lanka, actually. It doesn't involve Dravidians or Austronesians, but rather Sino-Tibetans, but I'm afraid that's all I can say at the moment.

I am interested in getting Dravidian or Para-Dravidians to Madagascar and Southeast Africa, though. And potentially Arabia, at least in the Aden area, as I want there to be more interaction with India and Egypt ITTL.

So like the TTL Phonecians/Carthaginians of the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf. That's cool
 
I'm looking forward to seeing a TL of yours where Sulla dies in Chaeronea.

To be honest, I was kind of hoping that one would have won the vote, but people voted for Not My Heifer instead. This timeline obviously requires a LOT more research and is slower in the writing, but it's a great exercise in world building, and I guess the forum needed a more in-depth Bronze Age timeline anyways ;)

So like the TTL Phonecians/Carthaginians of the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf. That's cool

Hmmmm... sort of. We'll see. Given what I have learned about the Deccan Peninsula this passed week, I'm still at a loss for what motivates the South Indians ITTL to seek out trade with say, Egypt and Mesopotamia rather than merely respond to Egyptian and Mesopotamian traders trying to get their hands on their riches. I suppose seeking a market to prophet off of their spices would be one way. I have read that the first evidence of cinnamon in Egypt comes from 1500 BCE.
 
I love this project! I have some question about it:

1 - Which theory are you following on the Ligurians? The ones that think of them as an Indo-European ethnic group or the ones that in general consider them as non-Indo-European? If you tend for the latter, what's the future you have for them?

2 - Talking about other non-Indo-European civilizations in the region, what do you plan for them? Are we seeing Etruscans or at least *Etruscans (maybe Terramare civilizations develope and end differently, if the Villanovan theory about Etruscan origins is right)? Sicania rules the waves?

3 - Is America going to be affected by the POD before *Columbus?
 
I love this project! I have some question about it:

1 - Which theory are you following on the Ligurians? The ones that think of them as an Indo-European ethnic group or the ones that in general consider them as non-Indo-European? If you tend for the latter, what's the future you have for them?

My brief reading on the subject of Ligurians suggests that by Classical Antiquity they were Indo-European, but as to when they were Indo-Europeanized is not entirely agreed upon. I speak and read Italian, and so I read a couple of papers in Italian that showed a bunch of petroglyphs and rock carvings with what are believed to be divine names from the region that are non-Celtic and non-Italic in origin. If anything Carlos Quiles and his team have to say over at indo-european.eu is worth its salt then there was a wave of Indo-Europeanization of Western Europe that predated the expansion of Celtic and Italic, and thus Lusitanian and probably also Ligurian belong to extinct branches within this wave.

2 - Talking about other non-Indo-European civilizations in the region, what do you plan for them? Are we seeing Etruscans or at least *Etruscans (maybe Terramare civilizations develope and end differently, if the Villanovan theory about Etruscan origins is right)? Sicania rules the waves?

There is mounting evidence that Etruscan is an Anatolian language, specifically related to "Luwic" languages like Luwian, Lycian, Lidian, Pisidian, Sidetic, etc., and that it represents a very old split within the Anatolian family. I am fairly positive I want the Balkans to be primarily "Anatolian", at least for awhile, and for dialectal continuity to remain intact between at least the Slovenia/Croatia area and Northern Italy. Thus, Italy may also end up "Anatolian". I have no idea what to do with Sicily yet, although I am interested in entertaining settlement from Lower Egypt.

3 - Is America going to be affected by the POD before *Columbus?

I have no idea. Any thoughts?
 
I have no idea. Any thoughts?

Either the Americas remain unaffected or you add an additional POD in the Americas. Honestly, the beauty of your timeline is the fact that one heifer not being sacrificed causes so many butterflies. Personally, I wouldn't change the Americas and just stick with one POD. However, that does not mean that you cannot have some groups of Eurasians coming into contact with the Americas centuries before OTL Columbus. But it is up to you of course.
 
So, I don't have anything to do at the moment, so let's just summarize ideas in this thread that I think are viable for the timeline...

1. Lasting Indo-European civilization in Qinghai. Definitely doable, in my opinion.
2. Papphir (Bappir) evolving into a regular staple of the Middle Eastern diet. Also doable, although I'm not sure if it changes his
3. Expanded range of Yeniseian languages/peoples. Also doable. They need to adopt horse culture relatively early, which I think works with the butterflied migrations of Indo-Europeans at an earlier period. If Dené-Yeniseian is a valid grouping, we might also have another branch somewhere in Siberia, a Para-Yeniseian, something perhaps between Athabaskan and Yeniseian, that ends up inheriting Mongolia.
4. Austronesian Sri Lanka. I liked this idea initially, but I now have a different idea involving Sino-Tibetans from the Bengal area. That's as much as I'm willing to say on the matter for now, though.
5. Indo-European Egypt. I liked this initially, but I think I would rather see a more outward-looking, colonial Egypt instead.
6. Silk-producing, Basque-speaking empire in Iberia. We can still have a united, silk-producing Iberia, but my recent research on Paleohispanic languages seems to conclude that Basque isn't "indigenous" to Iberia in the sense that it's more ancient than Indo-European there. Demonstrably Basque toponyms and hydronyms are not found in Iberia in Iberia in fact prior to the Roman conquest, and while the ancient Iberian language seems to be related to Basque in some capacity (perhaps in a way similar to how Iranian and Armenian are related), the Iberian peoples do not necessarily predate Indo-Europeans in Iberia, although they do predate Celts (but Lusitanians were not Celtic). So, this Empire might be Tartessian-speaking, in fact, and its silk will be derived from the cocoons of the Giant Peacock Moth.
7. Semitic-speaking Sicily, Crete, and Cyprus. I'm now of the mind that a Semitic-speaking Cyprus and perhaps Eastern Crete and Rhodes are doable for awhile, as well as Cilicia and Pamphylia. I am however, much more interested in the prospect of a colonial Upper Egypt controlling Sicily, at least for awhile.
8. Colonization of South Africa and Madagascar from Iran. This still interests me, certainly. But, it will post-date Dravidian or Para-Dravidian settlement of these areas.
9. Surviving Sumerian-descendant in Socotra. Maybe, we'll see.
5. Turkic Manchuria, possibly Korea. It will have to be Para-Turkic, and I will be using the Starostin school's reconstructions of Proto-Altaic for this (I know, I'm sorry).
6. Tungusic Central Asia. Maybe, but probably not.
7. Elamite migration into India. This will still be happening, and I would like at least a lasting Elamite-derived Gujarat.
9. Japanese/Chinese/Indian colonization of Australia. There will be no Japanese ITTL, but perhaps Chinese or Austronesian colonization would be in order.
10. Mongolic or Para-Mongolic migrations into West Asia and Europe. Doable and desirable. Para-Mongols will be this timeline's Turks, although they might not get as far as Anatolia, as it's kind of something that the Turks IOTL were able to pull that off.
11. Alphabetic Writing in China. This might start in the Tarim Basin and spread to China later, slowly supplanting the old logographic script the way it did IOTL cuneiform in the Middle East.
12. Domestic foxes. Doable, and will likely be done. Just, not the way I had initially thought.
13. Mediterranean "Mandala" system. Also doable, and will probably be done for at least the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age.
14. Alternate gender hierarchies and family setups in the Mediterranean area. Also definitely doable. I'm interested in Developing Sardinia a little more ITTL, and so we'll see what comes out of it.
15. Earlier invention of the printing press from woodblock printing. This will be done, but I'm not sure where and when. I like to think Anatolia, but then possibly Iran, or the Balkans.
16. An Elamite Thalassocracy in the Arabian Sea. Yes! Definitely. This is doable and will likely be featured later on, at least for a little while in the Middle Bronze Age, I imagine.
17. Hmong-Mien South China. I LOVE this idea @Shahrasayr. We will definitely be going with it.
14. Balkanized China, United North India. Also doable, and I think this is how I want to play it ITTL.
15. Northwest Caucasian on the Dnieper/Dniester, possibly up on the Baltic. Possibly as far as the Baltic, but I would like the Northwest Caucasians to evolve into a sort of Phoenicians of the Black Sea, facilitating trade between the Baltic, Black Sea, and Aegean. This does not however necessarily means that there will be Northwest Caucasian-speaking nations on the Baltic.
16. Hurrian-speaking Empire in Anatolia. Yes, doable, and desirable. I have a lot of plans for this idea, but unfortunately I don't think this empire will last forever.
17. Slow synthesis of Indo-Europeans and BMAC. Similar to what happened IOTL, but beginning at a considerably earlier date and thus resulting in a development like seen IOTL with the Akkadians and Sumerians.
18. Hurrian migration into India after the collapse of the IVC. This will itself be followed by a migration of Indo-Europeans from Transoxiana a couple of centuries later in the Late Bronze Age.

What other ideas can we conjure up? Alternate domesticates, alternate agricultural technology, just technology in general? Ideas on philosophy, and religion? As a sort of joke I was thinking of a widespread cult of Satan, with Satan, or rather *Saytān being an epithet of the Semitic god Rešep, thus Rešep Saytān later being shortened to just Saytān. This would be a solar deity, and the hen-theistic cult surrounding him I thought might gain popularity in Egypt and the Levant, and perhaps the Semitic areas of Anatolia. Hell, it may even become a major world religion, at least for a little while :evilsmile:
 
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