Not My Heifer Brainstorm (Results of Alternate Indo-European Migrations)

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Bassarion Korax, Jul 19, 2018.

  1. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    So, I’m about ready to release the first update for my upcoming timeline Not My Heifer, in which the bulk of Indo-European migration will be channeled into the Middle East, and seeing as there a lot of ideas spinning around in my head in terms of alternate migrations, languages, religions, etc., I was wondering what you guys want to see out of the timeline?


    The PoD is approximately 3500 BCE, so... there’s a lot of room to play, and I also don’t like the use of “butterfly nets”. Any and all ideas are welcome!
     
  2. metalinvader665 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if it's the most plausible of ideas, but with a 3500 BC POD you could conceivably have the Indo-Europeans go to Yunnan and Burma and make up some of the diverse ethnic groups of that region, up to and including becoming the main ethnic group of ATL Burma. I'll quote an earlier post I made describing the idea (in the context of a Tocharian migration).

     
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  3. Vuu Resident Serb expert

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    The problem is, where other than Europe. All other directions seem kinda undesirable
     
  4. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    The Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia? The PoD will be rerouting the bulk of Indo-European migrationsnof the Chalcolithic into the Middle East, particularly Iran and Mesopotamia, and later Anatolia.



    This is actually a pretty interesting idea. I was myself interested in a more Indo-Europeanized Qinghai, which could conceivably lead to an Indo-Europeanization of Burma. That would make for a nice replacement of Indo-European migrations into India, which I was considering doing away with.


    What else would you like to see, though? Cuz the PoD is very, very early, which means that there is a lot of room to for some very exotic outcomes. An idea I was mulling over (although I’m not sure how I would make it happen) was some kind of Austronesian migration to Sri Lanka and the Maldives.
     
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  5. ramones1986 Grumpy and Lazy

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    I shared this idea as well, particularly the East Barito people (e.g. Maanyan, Malagasy, even Sama-Bajau)...

    Back to the OP, so what would the dominant ethnolinguistic group in the European mega-peninsula in this scenario?
     
  6. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    See, I was interested in some of the Formosan groups, but I haven’t been able to find a whole lot of information about their evolution in English. I am still very interested in the idea of some kind of an Austronesian language in Sri Lanka, though.


    As far as the dominant pan-ethnicity in Europe, I was thinking Finno-Ugric, probably, or at least north of the Alps and Pyrenees and west of the Vistula. What I have been reading suggests that the Corded Ware Culture was likely Uralic-speaking and probably Finno-Ugric.


    I should say though that the idea of this thread doesn’t only concern Europe and the Middle East, though. With a PoD this early, the butterflies could be enormous and far reaching, so feel free to present your most far flung ideas
     
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  7. GoukaRyuu Well-Known Member

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    I personally am just interested in seeing the new languages and cultures that will develop. I also imagine Basque might do a lot better and maybe even have sibling languages. And, given that the Basques, if my CK2 has taught me anything, were much more equitable for the time towards women. I wouldn't think we would see any out and out matriarchies, but perhaps a monotheistic feminine religion could develop.

    Admittedly, I am also interested to see what doesn't change. While the languages, culture, and players maybe different, how much of humanity is still humanity that the larger social changes that happen over time still happen. That is one thing I also want to see.

    So the IEs head East and South completely here instead of in both directions. While you have said Iran and the Tarim Basin, and probably in between, will be settled, will they head down to the Middle East and Levant? The Egyptians are doing well for themselves right now so they probably couldn't make it into Africa.
     
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  8. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    I haven’t done a lot of research on Basque as of yet, actually. I hadn’t thought too extensively about how they might fair ITTL. But as far as the expansion of IE, it will definitely make it to the Levant via Mesopotamia, but Semitic languages will still be a thing for some time. It’s interesting that you should bring up Egypt, though. I had thought it possible that Egyptian civilization as we know it might collapse during the Bronze Age because of increasing Hurrianization and later Indo-Europeanization of the Levant, which would certainly send some Semitic groups into Africa, I would think.
     
  9. Augenis Latvia isn't real Kicked Banned

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    fights against urge to present the rising, though still inconclusive amount of evidence that at least part of the original Indo-Europeans were around in Eastern Europe since the Mesolithic and later formed the Balts and Slavs
     
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  10. Falecius Well-Known Member

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    Well, the area where PIE speakers are believed to have originated is now quite widely considered to be modern Southern Ukraine and whereabouts, so yeah. What they spoke in the Mesolithic period was (probably) not yet PIE, but something ancestral to it.
     
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  11. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    So, for the purposes of the TL, I am going to be going off of the information presented and summarized on this website: https://indo-european.info/ie/Indo-European. As far as I can tell, this is where the most recent research on the matter is, which tells us that Common Indo-European likely originated with the Khvalynsk Culturs on the Pontic Steppe around the bend of the Volga River.
     
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  12. Valdemar Daae Overthinking Is What I Do Best

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    I'm currently working on some much later ethnographic-centered ATLs(mostly due to climatographic consequences), however I've learnt a lot particularly from trying to make the Dtage, a Proto-Yeniseian ethnic group(related closest to the Jie) I've mapped moving west during an alternate Migration Period to around the mouth of the Volga and in the Aral-Caspian Depression.

    The PoD you've picked for this is, in my opinion, excellent for fascinating speculation. If Proto-PIE(PPIE??) peoples are going to be moving east to Qinghai and south to the Middle East, they'll probably severely impact genetics and environmental factors as well. If they're travelling through or assimilating into the Caucasus region much, they may pick up some of the originally domesticated grape varieties up to a thousand years early. Although the minutia of agricultural potential is pretty unimportant upon a macro-scale, it could mean a combination of the Sumerian beermaking cake method and Georgian amber-colored wines, strangely enough.
    If or how these PPIE descendants reach East Asia, they'll probably pass though the Central Asian Steppe regions on their way. If they do this sometime before 2000BCE, they would definitely come into contact with the Botai peoples or some kind of relatives. Heck, some say that the PIE migrations founded the Botai culture; they have been theorized to be something else entirely, neither Proto-Uralic nor Proto-Indo-European. Either way, they are the first evidence of domesticated Botai-style horses- the ancestors to Pzewalski's Horses and bred specifically for meat and milk to support larger communities. If you allow these peoples to take the Botai horses(a separate slightly earlier domestication event to other modern Equus horses) with them, then you could easily see these horses becoming a major domestic animal in hill or steppe regions around Eurasia, kick-starting lactose tolerance in the Himalayan foothills and Euarasian steppes. All while, most ironically, Western Europe remains without any dairy-producing domesticates on any large scale. It would primarily remain at the time as a forested landscape, assuming the non-Indo-European presence creates later adoption of Beaker Culture style copper and bronze use. A later Western European Copper Age potentially delays or prevents the massive European deforestation and overhunting efforts focused around 1500-1000BCE in turn.

    I know this is mostly technological, environmental and sociological semantics, but it's effectively what information I can think of without delving into levels of precise worldbuilding, no doubt up to others to decide. I do, however, fancy the idea that in the Middle East early Sumerian breadmaking- originating from beer yeast cakes- could become a centralized social repository for grain and alcohol distribution and later a communal neighborhood food outlet in general. A combination communal kitchen, food bank, storehouse and pub, if you will. It might emerge as a result of larger city administration, lack of space for individual kitchens, emergence of food processing as a necessary activity beyond gruel making, or simply from a harsh famine/drought causing societal change in Mesopotamia or the Levant. Just an interesting idea that came to me.

    I apologize for any hard reading, overly long sentences, rambling trains of thought or unhelpful information given that I may have suffered from.
     
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  13. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    I hadn't thought much about the fate of the Yeniseians, but if I can get my hands on a decent reconstruction of Proto-Yeniseian with enough roots to construct names for people, places, and institutions in the timeline (I shouldn't need more than 1,000 roots) then I think that it could be very interesting to play with them ITTL.

    I also hadn't thought much about this Sumerian beer-making cake method you mention. I've heard it mentioned, but I didn't realize that it was going to be a source of interest for anyone. I suppose since the purpose of this thread is to brainstorm, nothing is definitively set in stone for the timeline as of yet, so I shouldn't be shy about sharing my ideas here. Now, I had thought a great deal about Indo-Europeans picking up on the agricultural practices of the Caucasus, as I have been entertaining the idea of an early branch breaking off and heading south, absorbing the Maykop Culture and further moving into the Kur River Valley (modern Azerbaijan). From here, the expansion would continue along the southern coast of the Caspian and also onto the Iranian Plateau, which would absorb and displace Mannaean, Kassite (probably related to Hurro-Urartians), and Gutian-speaking tribes that would migrate into Mesopotamia during the early 3rd millennium. In this situation, I thought that the Sumerian city-states might play the different groups off of each other (Mannaeans, Gutians, Kassites, and Semites) to expand their own power, perhaps with a single city-state rising as the hegemon via the use of its non-Sumerian allies to some degree. I wanted to expel the Semites from Mesopotamia entirely during this period (sort of the way the Aryans were expelled from the Iranian Plateau ITTL) and drive them into the Levant at a time when clear boundaries between East and West Semitic had not yet been drawn, so that I can play with the evolution of Semitic languages and cultures to a degree during the Bronze Age.

    Now, to my knowledge, according to the blog I shared, which according to my research is a good summary of the current status of the field of Indo-European studies, the period in question is the period of Common Indo-European, or what gets called "Proto-Indo-European" for people who don't understand the distinctions between say, Indo-Hittite, Graeco-Aryan, Northwest Indo-European, etc. So, the tribes migrating into Azerbaijan and eventually Iran and Mesopotamia are speakers of Common Indo-European, i.e. Indo-European after the development of contrasts in voice (it seems that at the time Anatolian broke off, the stop series was voiceless and contrasted for gemination) and aspiration. The Botai Culture, by this time, is already being affected by the immigration of the Indo-European-speaking Afanasevo Culture, and will only continue to be so as another branch of Indo-European migrates around the top of the Caspian Sea, only to break off into separate northern, eastern, and southern branches. I imagine that whatever language the Botai peoples spoke, it was the language that forms such a heavy substratum in Tocharian as to have loaned the majority of the nominal inflection, as much of that doesn't seem to be derived from Indo-European proper. That could still happen ITTL, but the Afanasevo Culture will be reinforced by a new wave of Indo-European-speaking migrants, so the substratum influence might not be AS drastic as it was IOTL. An increase of Indo-European migration into Central Asia however could definitely see an increase in lactose tolerance as well as the importance of horses during the period, as you suggest, though. But, when you talk about Western Europe, weren't sheep and goats already common by this time, and weren't they also being milked? I would be interested in your references there, cuz if dairy production came with Indo-Europeans, then Europe might not be well-known for its cheeses, which could have some interesting effects down the line.

    Also, considering that it would seem that the Corded Ware peoples were not that into sedentary agriculture prior to the advent of Indo-Europeans, it might be the case that much of Europe remains in the hunter-gatherer (with some supplementary herding) stage for awhile longer, especially after the collapse of "Old Europe" (which is a subject I meant to do more reading about today). If that is the case, then it might also be the case that Europe is more linguistically diverse for a longer period of time, or at least that the form of Finno-Ugric that is adopted in Europe is rather different than what we know today, with a lot more substratum influence. It might also be the case that a mixed language between Finno-Ugric and some other "Old European" language develops and becomes the lingua franca of a new civilization, which would make things a lot easier for me, personally. The slowed technological development in Europe could give rise to the expansion of other groups as well. I had this idea of a Semitic thalassocracy of sorts developing in the Bronze Age out of Ugarit that would colonize places like Cyprus, Crete, Sicily, and the east coast of Iberia, but one that speaks something closer to Amorite, and not West Semitic.

    Well, we can go into some much more precise details, if you'd like ;)

    So, as far as the Sumerians are concerned, I would like them to enjoy a somewhat extended tenure in Mesopotamia by pitting the ethnically diverse northern portion against itself for awhile. I honestly am very surprised and intrigued at your fascination with this beer-making cake thing, though. Feel free to expound on the idea, and don't worry about using technological, environmental, and sociological semantics. You're in good company for it :)
     
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  14. Proto-Indo-European Banned

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    Can I get a cameo?
     
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  15. metalinvader665 Well-Known Member

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    Then where are all the Uralic loanwords in Proto-Germanic or Proto-Celtic? Whatever language families were spoken in northern Europe outside of Scandinavia in those times is completely extinct and left no evidence but a substrate on later languages.

    That said, this was so long ago that those people could have been linguistically replaced the same way but by a different culture, be it later Finno-Ugric migrations, Vasconic migrations, or migrations from Mediterranean peoples like the ancestors of the Etruscans.

    Sea Peoples wank?
     
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  16. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    It would appear that Finno-Ugric (or some variety of Uralic) was responsible not only for some loanwords but some phonological developments (via the adoption of Indo-European dialects by Uralic/Finno-Ugric speakers) in Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Hellenic, and possibly some Anatolian languages (like Luwian). According to the blog I cited, Germanic, Italo-Celtic, and Balto-Slavic form a common "Northwest Indo-European", while Indo-Iranian, Hellenic, and Armenian form a "Graeco-Aryan" group. Uralic/Finno-Ugric would have influenced each group differently at different time periods, but the adoption of Indo-European by Uralic/Finno-Ugric speakers probably resulted in the isoglosses we see in common with Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian. Look up the "Demic Diffusion Model". It's a very interesting read.

    It would appear that Etruscan is in some way or other affiliated with Indo-European, possibly one of the branches of Anatolian. Gianfranco Forni wrote an interesting paper on it that was something of an expansion on Adrados' previous publications on the matter. The evidence is convincing to me that there is some kind of a genetic connection there, but in all honesty I imagine that Etruscan likely represents either a mixed language, a descendant of a mixed language, or a very eccentric Anatolian Indo-European language with a high degree of lexical borrowing from an "Old European" substratum. Whatever the case, I'm pretty sure I want to do something Finno-Ugric in Western Europe, but what I'm not sure, that's why I threw out the possibility of the development of a mixed language developing sometime in the Bronze Age that becomes the lingua franca of a new popular culture, positing a cultural rather than demic diffusion for the new language, since the Corded Ware peoples were still largely into the hunter-gatherer life and only practiced minimal agriculture and animal pastoralism.

    I like Ancient Egypt, don't get me wrong, but I also don't see why it wouldn't be vulnerable to waves of Semitic migrants that could topple the civilization as we know it. When I say that though, I don't necessarily mean demographically replace, but more along the lines of the fall of Rome. There is a collapse, a series of invasions, invaders assimilate to some degree, and something else is born.
     
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  17. Augenis Latvia isn't real Kicked Banned

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    Oh no, more than that.

    There is growing popularity for the theory that the Narva and Neman cultures, predating Corded Ware in the Eastern Baltic and Belarus, were Proto-Indo-European and directly devolved into Proto-Balts with little, if any, Corded Ware influence.

    Basically, that Balts (and Slavs, who originated from them later) were the northern branch of the PIE homeland.
     
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  18. Falecius Well-Known Member

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    My understanding was that the Yamnaya and Bell-Beaker cultures were considered the (Western) IE bearers, including Balto-Slavic, though Corded Ware is also suggested by several scholars (but I see no reason why multiple languaged couldn't have been spoken in the Corded Ware area, since it is so vast). I was unaware of this particular theory, I can say that the associated geography makes sense, the timing seems more complicated in that it implies an earlier Balto-Slavic divergence than usually credited for. The genetics behind all this are, well, still quite in flux it seems. Anyway, both PIE and Proto-Balto-Slavic were certainly spoken in Eastern Europe. ;)
     
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  19. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    I suppose that some (early) religious developments could include a conflict for Semitic adherents between the Sumerians and Indo-Europeans? I assume that the same people who later went on to found the Akkadian Empire will still have considerable demographic strength around the time that the Indo-Europeans arrive. Considering how Sumerian culture/religion/writing was able to live on through the Semites, it seems that winning the loyalty/cooperation of this crucial group could be important for new immigrants trying to set up chiefdoms as well as for the beleaguered Sumerians trying to restore the status quo.
     
  20. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    In my above post, I talked about the possibility of Indo-European migrations onto the Iranian Plateau via Azerbaijan could trigger the migrations of Mannaeans, Gutians, and Kassites at a time when Semites were making their first incursions into Mesopotamia, which could butterfly the Semitic presence in Mesopotamia altogether while the a hegemonic Sumerian city-state subjugated it’s fellows and plays the various unrelated tribes off of each other to gain control of Upper Mesopotamia. It was just a thought of course, nothing is set in stone.