Norwegian Navy not at the disposal of Great Britain during WW2

Martinius

Banned
After the German invasion of Norway 1000 Norwegian ships seeked refuge in Great Britain and contributed tremendously to the British War effort:

The British politician Philip Noel-Baker, Baron Noel-Baker, commented after the war,"The first great defeat for Hitler was the battle of Britain. It was a turning point in history. If we had not had the Norwegian fleet of tankers on our side, we should not have had the aviation spirit to put our Hawker Hurricanes and our Spitfires into the sky. Without the Norwegian merchant fleet, Britain and the allies would have lost the war".[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nortraship

What if the Germans concentrate all their resources on case Yellow, ignoring all British/French interventions in Norway in April 1940? In June the Germans demand full neutrality from Norway which Norway gladly provides by expelling all Allied troops that landed in April/May. The 1000 Norwegian ships that sailed to Britain OTL, remain neutral. How does this change the years 1940/41 and WW2 in general?
 
No losses for the RN, RAF, or British Army in the Norwegian Campaign either.

Plus as a neutral, Norway still needs to conduct trade and make money. The British Empire and the United States are the two heavy hitters in the global economy and they control the global maritime commons. As a maritime trading nation, Norway cannot simply ignore the British and the Americans and I'm sure all sorts of shenanigans will go on to enable Norwegian trade with the Americans and ultimately the British.
 

formion

Banned
Well, I think that such case would be similar to the WW1 neutral Norway:

Source: https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/sea_transport_and_supply

Desperate however to increase tonnage, the Allies did whatever was necessary to secure neutral ships. Britain reinsured Norwegian ships when heavy losses threatened to overwhelm Norway’s wartime insurance provisions. In the first months of 1917, when other neutral ships were staying close to port, Norwegian ships continued to take to the seas. As huge losses continued to pile up – few, if any countries lost as large a percentage of their pre-war merchant marine as did Norway – Britain guaranteed sufficient coal imports and carried these to Norway in armed ships. In return, ship owners placed Norwegian vessels under British charter or under British command.[28] When persuasion with other nations failed, the Allies turned to strong-arm tactics. They were well positioned to do so, not only because of their powerful navies but because they controlled coal-bunkering supplies on all the major sea lanes, save in East Asian and North American waters. No ship suspected of trading with the enemy bunkered coal. By 1916, no ship loaded fuel coal unless it carried Allied cargoes. No neutral tramps received coal cargoes in United Kingdom ports unless they brought back preferred commodities or could prove that no such cargoes were offering. The more desperate the situation, the more ruthlessly they turned up the pressure. Frustrated with the inability to negotiate a deal over Dutch ships, the Allies fell back on the law of Angary and force-chartered Dutch vessels sitting in American and British harbors. More than 140 ships were acquired for Allied service this way. Comparable pressure was directed toward idle Scandinavian ships, while cutbacks in exports of cotton, phosphates, and oil tightened the screws on the Swedes to free up still more tonnage. In the end, by one method or another, the Allies found additional ships when their own fleets were insufficient and strained to the limit.[29]
 
It also means Britain can buy Swedish iron ore and ball bearings, saving dollars and reduce what needs to be shipped across the Atlantic.
 
German raider Pinguin doesn't have opportunity to bag Norwegian whaling fleet

How much did UK benefit from acess to Norwegian whaling fleet?

I know a lot of Whale meat ended up on British tables
 
No losses for the RN, RAF, or British Army in the Norwegian Campaign either.
No losses to the Wehrmacht either. 3 cruisers and 10 Z-boats sunk plus the Twins and Lutzow (ex-Deutschland) out of action for several months.

Which brings us to the S-word. The stronger German surface fleet in the summer of 1940 might mean that the ships that formed Force H IOTL might be needed at Scapa Flow to ensure that the Germans can't invade by sea. Though that might not be a bad thing because it won't be possible to attack Mers-el-Kebir.

In he longer term it will be much harder for German heavy units to break out into the North Atlantic without the aid of bases in Norway.

EDIT
These are the British naval losses
1 aircraft carrier - Glorious
2 cruisers - Curlew and Effingham
7 destroyers - Acatsa, Afridi, Ardent, Glowworm, Gurkha, Hardy and Hunter
1 sloop - Bittern​
 
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The stronger German surface fleet in the summer of 1940 might mean that the ships that formed Force H IOTL might be needed at Scapa Flow to ensure that the Germans can't invade by sea.
I dont see why the invasion fleet is slow so the many old slow Rs can kill it no need for the fast ships of Force H to be moved?
 
I dont see why the invasion fleet is slow so the many old slow Rs can kill it no need for the fast ships of Force H to be moved?
AIUI the heavy losses that the Kriegsmarine suffered in the Norwegian Campaign allowed the Admiralty to form Force H and reinforce the Mediterranean Fleet.
 
AIUI the heavy losses that the Kriegsmarine suffered in the Norwegian Campaign allowed the Admiralty to form Force H and reinforce the Mediterranean Fleet.
But is that not more a case of trying to deal with Atlantic commerce raiding break outs and covering forces in Norway from fast ships (S&G in particular) rather than actually able to stop an inevitably slow invasion?
 
I don't see why the invasion fleet is slow so the many old slow Rs can kill it no need for the fast ships of Force H to be moved?
In the summer of 1940 Royal Sovereign and Ramillies were based at Alexandria with the Mediterranean Fleet.

Revenge spent most of the summer of 1940 transporting the UK's gold bullion reserves to Canada, but was at Plymouth for Operation Catapult and was at Plymouth on anti-invasion duties from the middle of September 1940.

Force H wasn't formed until June 1940 and initially consisted of the capital ships Hood, Resolution and Valiant.
 
Does Churchill become Prime Minister if the Germans don't invade Norway?

I am scared Chamberlain is going to die anyway in November for cancer. If he did not reisgn after the ATL France Debate.

A more interesting question is: if Chamberlain did not resign but were terminal in June, would Lord Halifax had a better shot?
 
But is that not more a case of trying to deal with Atlantic commerce raiding break outs and covering forces in Norway from fast ships (S&G in particular) rather than actually able to stop an inevitably slow invasion?
I thought it was because there were fewer Kriegsmarine ships to escort the invasion fleet which meant that fewer RN ships were needed to sink the invasion fleet due to its weaker escort.

Therefore, ships were available to from Force H and reinforce the Mediterranean Fleet.
 
This is the deployment of the Royal Navy's capital ships and aircraft carriers. The source is the Naval History Net website.
(This is a link to the full list. https://www.bing.com/search?q=naval...+1940&form=IE11TR&src=IE11TR&pc=EUPP_HPNTDFJS)

HOME FLEET
2nd Battle Squadron

BARHAM (Capt G C Cooke) at Liverpool repairing to complete 30 June
NELSON (Capt G J A Miles) arrived Greenock 8 June for refitting
RODNEY (Flag, Capt F H G Dalrymple-Hamilton) departed Scapa Flow on patrol 9 June
VALIANT (Capt H B Rawlings OBE) departed Scapa Flow on patrol 6 June
Battlecruiser Squadron
RENOWN (Flag, Capt C E B Simeon) departed Scapa Flow on patrol 9 June
REPULSE (Capt E J Spooner DSO, Capt W G Tennant CB, MVO from 18 June) departed Scapa Flow on patrol 5 June
HOOD (Capt I G Glennie) at Liverpool repairing to complete 11 June
Vice Admiral Aircraft Carriers
ARK ROYAL (Flag, Capt C S Holland) departed Vestfjord covering Narvik evacuation
FURIOUS (Capt T H Troubridge) arrived in the Clyde 26 May

WESTERN APPROACHES COMMAND
Western Approaches Command, Devonport Sub Command
Aircraft carrier

ILLUSTRIOUS (Capt D W Boyd DSC) at Plymouth, due to sail for Dakar for trials, but changed to Bermuda due to French Armistice

NORTH ATLANTIC COMMAND (Gibraltar)
Battleship

RESOLUTION (Capt O Bevir) departed Scapa Flow 4 June for Gibraltar arrived 10 June

MEDITERRANEAN FLEET
1st Battle Squadron
Battleships

MALAYA (Capt A F E Palliser DSC) arrived 3 May,
RAMILLIES (Capt H T Baillie-Grohman DSO, OBE, ADC) drydocked,
ROYAL SOVEREIGN (Flag, Pridham-Wippell, Capt H B Jacomb) arrived 3 May,
WARSPITE (Flag, Cunningham, Capt D B Fisher CBE) arrived 10 May, all arrived or at Alexandria
Aircraft carriers
ARGUS (Capt H C Bovell) arrived Gibraltar 7 June
EAGLE (Capt A R M Bridge) arrived Alexandria 27 May

SOUTH ATLANTIC COMMAND
Aircraft carrier

HERMES (Capt R F J Onslow MVO, DSC) departed Freetown 6 June

AMERICA AND WEST INDIES STATION
Bermuda and Halifax Escort Force
3rd Battle Squadron
Battleship

REVENGE (Capt E R Archer) arrived Halifax 8 June

Missing from the list is Queen Elizabeth, which was having its long refit and wouldn't re-commission until January 1941.
 
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