Northumbria predominant

[Flocculencio]

Floc: That's what I was thinking, Dal Riata would be a northwestern state, possibly being subjugated to the Overkingdom later. Might these guys play a role in Ireland?

If the chiefs of Oriel are smart enough to swear fealty to the Overking then maybe Oriel might become the name for the Irish constituent Kingdom?

If they fight, though, the island might be settled with new English and Cymri thanes.

 

[Wendell]

Oops- sorry.



Albion might actually work- it's not an Anglo-Saxon name but with the inclusion of the Cymri it might be seen as a method of hearkening to the goal of unity of all the disparate parts of the Overkingdom.

Imajin: That's a good idea, actually. Bretwalda does mean "Lord of Britain" and perhaps could be used as the actual title of the Overking. In fact it only fell into disuse after the Danish invasions and since these don't happen in TTL, the title could well remain valid and in use.

Albion could theoretically be applicable to the whole island, even with Caledonia added.

 

[Thande]

Perhaps an anglicised form of Albion? "Whitland"?

 

[Flocculencio]

So here's the Million-dollar Question. What's the chance for war with the Continent. If the British Isles stick with the Celtic Rite I'd think that gives that much more reason for the Pope to back a French assault on Brittany.

In my other Anglo-Saxon TL I had the Celtic Christians of the British Isles forge relatively friendly ties with the Muslims in Andalusia because of this mutual antipathy towards the Catholics of the Continent.

 

[Thande]

In my other Anglo-Saxon TL I had the Celtic Christians of the British Isles forge relatively friendly ties with the Muslims in Andalusia because of this mutual antipathy towards the Catholics of the Continent.

I think that's going a bit far. I could see the Celtics making common cause with the Orthodox church, maybe even the Cathars, but the Muslims? Unlikely.

 

[Flocculencio]

I think that's going a bit far. I could see the Celtics making common cause with the Orthodox church, maybe even the Cathars, but the Muslims? Unlikely.

Yeah that was an extreme example Orthodox contact through the Scandinavian kingdoms of the Rus is quite likely though.

As for wars with the Continent, the combination of the foul weather of the Channel and concentration of English resources on a proper navy the chances for a successful invasion from France drop somewhat.

However, Brittany is going to be the problem- I could see it being a region under almost constant seige. While many Thanes might send their bannermen to fight in the Breton wars I think the most likely response from the rest of the Overkingdom would be to loose the navy and sow fire and sword all along the French coast of the Channel.

Which of course might lead to the French King applealing to the Pope.

And what if the Pope declares a Crusade against Great Britain?

 

[Tyr]

Yes!!!

Re the capital: Durham was, I believe, the historical capital of Northumbria. Leej's suggestion of Bamburgh makes sense as a fortified castle. York (or rather Eoforwic, which might be worn down to something like 'Efferick') could become a new, centrally located capital given the Northumbrians' southern acquisitions.

Bamburgh was the capital of Northumbria most of the time (it did move around a bit, was even in York for a decade or two at one point)

Durham does make a lot of sense as a place for a medieval city, if you go there and imagine it without the modern dams you will really see what I mean. But it didn't come to prominence until after the viking invasion IIRC- St.Cuthberts bones going from Lindesfarm to Chester-Le-Street then to Durham (I was born and raised round those parts hence I know such obscure bits )

 

[Phoenix]

Brittany could be a sort of training ground for the bannermen, keeping them in fighting shape.

Re: capitals, Edwin himself was constantly travelling through his Kingdom, so the records say. Though Bamburgh makes sense, and being on the coast, can recieve news quickly via the sea.

It is also close to the Tyne, though I do not know the state of Tyneside back then.

 

[Flocculencio]

Brittany could be a sort of training ground for the bannermen, keeping them in fighting shape.

Yes- I was thinking that the concept of castellation could be introduced to the Anglo-Saxons through their experiences in Brittany. After al if you live on the front lines of a region of endemic war you'd probably quickly adopt anything that makes your settlements safer.

 

[Rick Robinson]

So here's the Million-dollar Question. What's the chance for war with the Continent. If the British Isles stick with the Celtic Rite I'd think that gives that much more reason for the Pope to back a French assault on Brittany.

If the Synod of Whitby goes the other way - as more or less implied here - there may not even be a Pope by c. 1000, at any rate not in the sense we are used to. As I recall, the intellectual heft of Charlemagne's court was substantially provided by Anglo-Saxons, such as Alcuin. If Englalond (or Britland, or whatever it gets called) is following Celtic Rite, either these guys bring a different set of ideas, or they don't come over at all.

From all I've read, the late Merovingian church was in a pretty bad way, and the Pope had only gotten out from under the Byzantine thumb in 727, so perhaps the Celtic Rite, and associated intellectual tradition, spreads to the Continent c. 800.

-- Rick

 

[Wendell]

So here's the Million-dollar Question. What's the chance for war with the Continent. If the British Isles stick with the Celtic Rite I'd think that gives that much more reason for the Pope to back a French assault on Brittany.

In my other Anglo-Saxon TL I had the Celtic Christians of the British Isles forge relatively friendly ties with the Muslims in Andalusia because of this mutual antipathy towards the Catholics of the Continent.

I think this is a good idea. Could these British Isles come to welcome Jews fleeing persecution in Europe?

 

[Phoenix]

I think this is a good idea. Could these British Isles come to welcome Jews fleeing persecution in Europe?

That might be pushing it, though I do not know.

And there would most likely still be a Pope, just not as we know it. Maybe more of a chief among equals?

So would this Britain-analogue then be among the leading intellectuals of Western Europe? It was one of the richest, what with the tin mines in Cornwall and gold mines in Wales.

 

[Nicole]

So would this Britain-analogue then be among the leading intellectuals of Western Europe? It was one of the richest, what with the tin mines in Cornwall and gold mines in Wales.

Tin in Cornwall and Gold in Wales? But we've assigned those to the "Cymru" sub-Kingdom... seems like Cymru could be an important force on it's own, probably playing a major role in the politics of Britain.

 

[Thande]

Possible flag of an Anglo-Welsh Union?

(using the old Anglo-Saxon tradition of having a white dragon for England and a red dragon for Wales)

 

[Nicole]

Neat flag, Thande, but what about the age-old English tradition of not giving Wales a place on the flag?

 

[Thande]

Neat flag, Thande, but what about the age-old English tradition of not giving Wales a place on the flag?

That's a Norman tradition, not an English one - 'twas they who relegated Wales to the status of a downtrodden principality.

And in TTL Normandy is DOA.

 

[Nicole]

And in TTL Normandy is DOA.

Hm, Armorica might fall completely into the sphere of Brittany.

 

[Thande]

Hm, Armorica might fall completely into the sphere of Brittany.

Funny story actually: the Venerable Bede wrote in one of his histories that the Welsh came from Armenia - a typo (scribe-o?) for Armorica. So there was a generation of Anglo-Saxon scholars who thought the Welsh were Armenians.

I always wanted to bring this up in the middle of one of Kitjed and Abdul Hadi Pasha's love-ins, just to watch Abdul's brain explode from the cognitive dissonance.

 

[Paul Spring]

And in TTL Normandy is DOA.

Not necessarily - with a stronger "England", maybe more Danes and even Norwegians go attack the western Frankish kingdom. Perhaps "Normandy" ends up including most of northern France - even a Norman dynasty ruling from Paris as kings of France.

 

[Phoenix]

Regarding flags, this is Northumbria's, the red and gold.

Maybe the Welch can have their representation on a side?