Northumbria predominant

[Tyr]

Northumbria was the most powerful before the vikings.

For the name of the nation I remember hearing up north angles were a smaller group then the south. So we would probally end up with the nation called Sexonia or Juteland or Frisia (I know those last 2 are pretty much taken IOTL...)

 

[Flocculencio]

For the name of the nation I remember hearing up north angles were a smaller group then the south. So we would probally end up with the nation called Sexonia or Juteland or Frisia (I know those last 2 are pretty much taken IOTL...)

Actually think you've got that a bit mixed up. The Angles tended to settle North of the Saxons (hence Wessex, Essex and Sussex). Mercia and Northumbria would originally have been more Angle than Saxon.

You have to remember that the name "England" is a bit of a historical anomaly- the Angles were always outnumbered by the Saxons who had settled the more populous South and no one knows why their tribal name became applied to the entire Anglo-Saxon culture.

Of course all this talk of areas of settlement is a bit exaggerated seeing as the invading tribesmen would have intermarried with each other and with the Britons to form the Anglo-Saxons.

Just one of those historical quirks I guess.

For a bit more info see the map below (The Bernicians and Derians were Briton groups who were conquered by the Angles during the formation of Northumbria). As you can see the Saxons were originally concentrated around the modern Home Counties while the Angles originally went into East Anglia and the East Midlands.

 

[Flocculencio]

A capital for Northumbria

It's occurred to me that without the Viking conquest York might not really have had the prominence it achieved in OTL. Perhaps the Northumbrian crown might actually move the capital to Edinburgh (which King Edwin of Northumbria, the chap referenced in the POD, captured during his reign) in order to more effectively control the conquest of Scotland.

 

[Tyr]

Oh well, I knew it was one way around about the north having more or less of them.

The capital won't move to Scotland. With these medieval and earlier nations the capital was pretty much just where the king was- if the king is off conquering Scotland then that is where the government will be ran from. Once it returns to peace though and the kings have a choice of where to go I think they'd stick with their proper capital of Bamburgh.
Would be interesting to see that develop into a decent city...

 

[Flocculencio]

The capital won't move to Scotland. With these medieval and earlier nations the capital was pretty much just where the king was- if the king is off conquering Scotland then that is where the government will be ran from.

True enough- however I was thinking more about Thande's idea regarding the elective monarchy. It would probably make sense to have a city as the symbolic seat of the Overkingship where the Kings and Thanes and bannermen could gather for the appointment and coronation of each new Overking.

I suppose a religious centre would make sense since it would probably be the foremost churchman of the British Isles doing the coronation. Perhaps Durham, since thats where the monks of Lindisfarne fled after their monastery was sacked right at the beginning of the Danish invasion.

 

[Phoenix]

This, rather, matches what Edwin had, plus Mercia and the Saxon lands, and an expansion north, with room for he Picts and or the Scots.

York seems to have been prominent before the Vikings, Edwin built a church there, and created a See for Paulinus there.

Though mayhap Durham could settle as capital?
It seems to be about middle of the land.

 

[Nicole]

Didn't the Scottish invasion start in modern Argyll? I would think that and possibly the whole Highlands (since there is a geographic boundary) would be Scottish.

 

[Thande]

Also- a thought on religion. If the Celtic form of Christianity prevails in TTL that gives one more factor distancing the Overkingdom from the Continent.

Yes!!!

Re the capital: Durham was, I believe, the historical capital of Northumbria. Leej's suggestion of Bamburgh makes sense as a fortified castle. York (or rather Eoforwic, which might be worn down to something like 'Efferick') could become a new, centrally located capital given the Northumbrians' southern acquisitions.

Flocc: the name Southumbria typically referred to the area now in south Yorkshire and northern Lincolnshire, which went back and forth between Northumbria and Mercia before the Vikings came. I don't believe it was ever applied to Wessex. Literally, of course, it means everything south of the Humber.

Another thing: on Flocc's map it mentions the 'Lindisfaras' as a Briton tribe somewhere down in Lincolnshire. Is this where the name Lindisfarne comes from? If so, it's moved around a bit.

 

[Nicole]

Also, on Pheonix's map, it doesn't make sense to give Anglesey to Northumbria when that was a major center of Gwynedd, the most powerful welsh state.

This is how I'd draw the borders.

 

[Phoenix]

Edwin had conquered Anglesey, according to Bede.

 

[Flocculencio]

Edwin had conquered Anglesey, according to Bede.

Hmm...perhaps a jurisdictional rearrangement when the Cyrmi lords swear fealty to the Overking? The thanes in Anglesey might have their allegiance transferred to whichever Welsh house gains the Kingship of Cymru.

Thande: Re Southumbria- thanks for the correction. I guess we could keep the name Wessex for the Southernmost constituent state of the Overkingdom then

York is good but maybe for an even more centrally located capital Nottingham (or Snotengaham as it was) might be good. Make the Cymri the Mercians and the Wessexmen feel more a part of the Overkingdom.

Now the most interesting areas to me are Scotalnd (i.e. OTL Ireland) and Brittany. Brittany is an obvious place for tensions between the Overkingdom and France while the Scots are probably going to be either vassalised or conquered outright at some point.

 

[Wendell]

Maybe the whole polity takes the name Mercia?

 

[Nicole]

You know, now that I think about it, the ideas for Scotland seem odd... If we use Edwin as a POD, the Dal Riatans are already established in the Western Isles and the near coast, while their domains in Ireland have been decaying.

Here's a map that wikipedia has of Dal Riata in 590... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dalriada.jpg

 

[Flocculencio]

Maybe the whole polity takes the name Mercia?

Unlikely since the unifying kingdom is Northumbria.

A collective name like Anglalond is more likely to be used when referring to the Overkingdom as a whole.

 

[Wendell]

Unlikely since the unifying kingdom is Northumbria.

A collective name like Anglalond is more likely to be used when referring to the Overkingdom as a whole.

Or, England, for that matter.

 

[Flocculencio]

Or, England, for that matter.

Same thing. England is what Anglalond looked like after being battered into shape for a few centuries. As with Eoforwic- Jorvik- York, Ledercaestre- Leicester, Snotengaham- Nottingham etc.

 

[Flocculencio]

You know, now that I think about it, the ideas for Scotland seem odd... If we use Edwin as a POD, the Dal Riatans are already established in the Western Isles and the near coast, while their domains in Ireland have been decaying.

Here's a map that wikipedia has of Dal Riata in 590... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dalriada.jpg

That's interesting- perhaps if we go with the idea of the Viking colonies in Ireland being taken by the English most of Eire might come under the sway of the Overkingdom with the Scots being restricted to Dalriada, possibly being driven from Ulster and left with only the Highlands.

 

[Wendell]

Same thing. England is what Anglalond looked like after being battered into shape for a few centuries. As with Eoforwic- Jorvik- York, Ledercaestre- Leicester, Snotengaham- Nottingham etc.

I knew that. My suggestion of Mercia gaining wider usage and meaning was meant to find an alternative, as was discussed earlier. That said, how about Albion?

 

[Nicole]

I knew that. My suggestion of Mercia gaining wider usage and meaning was meant to find an alternative, as was discussed earlier. That said, how about Albion?

Didn't the term "Bretwalda" come from an Anglo-Saxon term meaning "Ruler of all Britain" or something along that line? If so, "Britain" (well, the Anglo-Saxon equivalent of it) could be the name of this Kingdom.

Floc: That's what I was thinking, Dal Riata would be a northwestern state, possibly being subjugated to the Overkingdom later. Might these guys play a role in Ireland?

 

[Flocculencio]

I knew that. My suggestion of Mercia gaining wider usage and meaning was meant to find an alternative, as was discussed earlier.

Oops- sorry.

That said, how about Albion?

Albion might actually work- it's not an Anglo-Saxon name but with the inclusion of the Cymri it might be seen as a method of hearkening to the goal of unity of all the disparate parts of the Overkingdom.

Imajin: That's a good idea, actually. Bretwalda does mean "Lord of Britain" and perhaps could be used as the actual title of the Overking. In fact it only fell into disuse after the Danish invasions and since these don't happen in TTL, the title could well remain valid and in use.