Northumbria and Alba

The basic idea is a surviving in some form Northumbria and a Gaelic Scotland, however trying to keep the world most like ours (by modern ish times) as possible.


It would be good if English could more or less go in the same way, so still Norman invasion, or perhaps extreme French influence?

I imagine Northumbria would probably still be eventually taken by the Vikings then perhaps not so much struggle with the English over the area. By the time say Normans arrive Northumbria manages to resist them. I imagine Northumbria could perhaps eventually be subdued by England to form a sort of UK but of course with language differences.


As for Scotland keeping it Gaelic isn't so hard (they also would not own Lothian) but the main thing i think to think about is the influence of the Norse and Scotland's position in Western Europe. I could kind of see the Norse influencing Scotland still taking the Western Isles, don't know when Scotland could kick them out though.
How long would it take for Scotland to become more in-line with the rest of Western Europe? Or will it stay a backward country for quit a while?
I wonder also about its relationship with Ireland.
 
The basic idea is a surviving in some form Northumbria and a Gaelic Scotland, however trying to keep the world most like ours (by modern ish times) as possible.


It would be good if English could more or less go in the same way, so still Norman invasion, or perhaps extreme French influence?

I imagine Northumbria would probably still be eventually taken by the Vikings then perhaps not so much struggle with the English over the area. By the time say Normans arrive Northumbria manages to resist them. I imagine Northumbria could perhaps eventually be subdued by England to form a sort of UK but of course with language differences.


As for Scotland keeping it Gaelic isn't so hard (they also would not own Lothian) but the main thing i think to think about is the influence of the Norse and Scotland's position in Western Europe. I could kind of see the Norse influencing Scotland still taking the Western Isles, don't know when Scotland could kick them out though.
How long would it take for Scotland to become more in-line with the rest of Western Europe? Or will it stay a backward country for quit a while?
I wonder also about its relationship with Ireland.

You'd need a more successful Northumbria, at least initially, with a POD between the reigns of King Eadwine and King Ecgfrith if the Kingdom is to maintain possession of Edinburgh and the surrounding lands. The issue of religion is likely to remain to a debilitating one however for a while, because of the encroachment of Rome-based Catholicism into lands under the sway of the practices of the Irish church. This is important as if the POD is during the reign of King Eadwine then you are liekly to see more resistance to Northumbrian rule, as Eadwine historically followed Roman customs in religion (which he would have encountered during his time in exile spent in the Kingdom of East Anglia). If it is a later POD then the Northumbrians will initially have things their way with greater ease, but will face a potentially difficult situation when the benefits of siding with the Pope and Rome over Irish preachers (and by extension the Pictish and Dal Riatan elements of their population in Lothian and beyond to the River Forth) become apparent.

A more successful Northumbria might become stable enough to withstand or avoid the infighting that in OTL reduced it from a considerable power to a politically volitile northern backwater, and could therefore perhaps resist the onslaught of Danish / Norse armies as well as Wessex did. The Great Heathen Army achieved success in OTL by exploiting a civil war between to rival claimants to the Northumbrian throne, and seized York before either could properly react. A stronger, more continuous dynasty would go a long way to prevent Northumbria being such an easy target.

Finally such an early POD could mean that there wouldn't be any Normans as we know them, which, speaking for myself at least, could only be a good thing ;)

If Irish christianity spreads into the highlands as well as it did in OTL then I can't see how the Picts, isolated as they are, can avoid being absorbed into a wider Gaelic-speaking culture. Danish and Norse raiders would probably still be able to carve out enclaves into Alba as well as they did in OTL, but are ultimately going to start turning into Gaelic speakers at some point for the same reason as the Picts; especially once Denmark and Norway consolidate into Kingdoms.
 
You'd need a more successful Northumbria, at least initially, with a POD between the reigns of King Eadwine and King Ecgfrith if the Kingdom is to maintain possession of Edinburgh and the surrounding lands. The issue of religion is likely to remain to a debilitating one however for a while, because of the encroachment of Rome-based Catholicism into lands under the sway of the practices of the Irish church. This is important as if the POD is during the reign of King Eadwine then you are liekly to see more resistance to Northumbrian rule, as Eadwine historically followed Roman customs in religion (which he would have encountered during his time in exile spent in the Kingdom of East Anglia). If it is a later POD then the Northumbrians will initially have things their way with greater ease, but will face a potentially difficult situation when the benefits of siding with the Pope and Rome over Irish preachers (and by extension the Pictish and Dal Riatan elements of their population in Lothian and beyond to the River Forth) become apparent.

A more successful Northumbria might become stable enough to withstand or avoid the infighting that in OTL reduced it from a considerable power to a politically volitile northern backwater, and could therefore perhaps resist the onslaught of Danish / Norse armies as well as Wessex did. The Great Heathen Army achieved success in OTL by exploiting a civil war between to rival claimants to the Northumbrian throne, and seized York before either could properly react. A stronger, more continuous dynasty would go a long way to prevent Northumbria being such an easy target.

Finally such an early POD could mean that there wouldn't be any Normans as we know them, which, speaking for myself at least, could only be a good thing ;)

If Irish christianity spreads into the highlands as well as it did in OTL then I can't see how the Picts, isolated as they are, can avoid being absorbed into a wider Gaelic-speaking culture. Danish and Norse raiders would probably still be able to carve out enclaves into Alba as well as they did in OTL, but are ultimately going to start turning into Gaelic speakers at some point for the same reason as the Picts; especially once Denmark and Norway consolidate into Kingdoms.


Sounds good. Well i wouldn't want Normans to be butterflyed away and yeah i want a Gaelic Scotland.
 
You'd need a more successful Northumbria, at least initially, with a POD between the reigns of King Eadwine and King Ecgfrith if the Kingdom is to maintain possession of Edinburgh and the surrounding lands. The issue of religion is likely to remain to a debilitating one however for a while, because of the encroachment of Rome-based Catholicism into lands under the sway of the practices of the Irish church. This is important as if the POD is during the reign of King Eadwine then you are liekly to see more resistance to Northumbrian rule, as Eadwine historically followed Roman customs in religion (which he would have encountered during his time in exile spent in the Kingdom of East Anglia). If it is a later POD then the Northumbrians will initially have things their way with greater ease, but will face a potentially difficult situation when the benefits of siding with the Pope and Rome over Irish preachers (and by extension the Pictish and Dal Riatan elements of their population in Lothian and beyond to the River Forth) become apparent.

A more successful Northumbria might become stable enough to withstand or avoid the infighting that in OTL reduced it from a considerable power to a politically volitile northern backwater, and could therefore perhaps resist the onslaught of Danish / Norse armies as well as Wessex did. The Great Heathen Army achieved success in OTL by exploiting a civil war between to rival claimants to the Northumbrian throne, and seized York before either could properly react. A stronger, more continuous dynasty would go a long way to prevent Northumbria being such an easy target.

Finally such an early POD could mean that there wouldn't be any Normans as we know them, which, speaking for myself at least, could only be a good thing ;)

If Irish christianity spreads into the highlands as well as it did in OTL then I can't see how the Picts, isolated as they are, can avoid being absorbed into a wider Gaelic-speaking culture. Danish and Norse raiders would probably still be able to carve out enclaves into Alba as well as they did in OTL, but are ultimately going to start turning into Gaelic speakers at some point for the same reason as the Picts; especially once Denmark and Norway consolidate into Kingdoms.

I just saw you did a bit of Northumbrian stuff yourself. Any thoughts on Scotland and the development of England?
 
Sounds good. Well i wouldn't want Normans to be butterflyed away and yeah i want a Gaelic Scotland.

Ah, ignore the bit about the Normans...that just the bias of a Yorkshireman ;)

I just saw you did a bit of Northumbrian stuff yourself. Any thoughts on Scotland and the development of England?

I think its more a case of me advising you not to make certain glaring mistakes that I did, but what the hell.

For England:

The trend in Anglo-Saxon England was towards consolidation into larger kingdoms during the sixth and seventh centuries, but from the seventh century onwards the borders of each kingdom began to settle and didn't change really from this point until the arrival of the Danes jumpstarted the unification of England under the House of Wessex. I think this has as much to with the depelopment of a functioning church-governed bureaucracy as with an early regional identity (as Mercians or East Anglians) that made governance easier for the migrating royal courts of the time. As it became easier over time to raise larger numbers of thanes for the royal households and collect more freemen to serve in the fyrd it meant that it became harder for Anglo-Saxon kingdoms to conquer one another. The Danes on the other hand, often striking along or through border regions with relatively great speed and in great numbers, were able to sidestep this problem and this is why Anglo-Saxon Kings found it so difficult to counter these invasions without reform of their armies like that undertaken by King Alfred of Wessex. Therefore I'd say that any land grabs by Northumbrian Kings should be relatively close to whatever POD you decide upon. Northumbria would also benefit from some form of natural boundary to discourage attacks from Mercia, so perhaps expanding the kingdom south to the River Trent as I did in my TL might be a solution.

Depending upon your preferences then, you might wind up with three to five decent-sized kingdoms covering modern England and the Scottish lowlands by the time of the Danish invasions.This stronger Northumbria might initially collapse like in OTL but with a stronger, more established dynasty might be able to revive under a capable ruler, though that would leave Mercia or Wessex to spearhead the drive for unification. Alternatively Northumbria might weather the Danish attacks like Wessex, and between the two the invaders are slowly squeezed out of England entirely without leaving behind any identifiable Danelaw, which in the end would lead to a truely awesome showdown. Theres not much chance of making two separate English kingdoms work, so ultimately you'd have to pick a favourite and allow it to unify England.

For more specific advice upon religion you'd have to provide a POD however as during the reign of King Eadwine you'd be spreading Roman Catholicism to the River Forth, but the later you leave the POD then the more likely it becomes that Irish forms of christianity will be adopted instead. The real butterflies for christianity will involve Europe however, as depending on how well the Franks fare in your TL will affect the eventual English conversion efforts in German-speaking regions. I can't see any glaringly obvious reason for this not to take place, barring bouts of serious infighting within the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms themselves, so depending upon your choices you could end up with an independent kingdom of Frisia, or an independent kingdom of Saxony, or both, or a complete failure to covert anybody along the coastline of the Germanic Ocean (the North Sea).

Scotland is unfortunaterly less of an area of expertise for me, but I'll do my best:

As I said before I can't see how you can really prevent the Picts from being absorbed into the wider Gaelic-speaking culture given the influence of the Irish church and the steady expansionism of the Dal Riatan Kings. Better kingship might see the Kingdom of Alba keep possession of or even regain some of its old holdings on the Irish mainland with an early POD and a channel-spanning Gaelic kingdom would be an interesting addition to a TL, though instability between the two halves of the kingdom might cause problems for even a string of decent kings.

Viking enclaves on the mainland of Scotland or Ireland and on the offshore islands around them are still likely to develop, but their success or failure ultimately depends upon the degree to which the Danes and Norse there become unified. Too little and eventually they will lose their holdings to renewed Scottish and Irish attacks, but if its too much then its likely to take several centuries of effort for a developed Scandinavian presence to be fully reduced. I'd ultimately see the border with England settling along the River Forth, or perhaps a little further south to the northern banks of the River Clyde in the west if the Scots maintain control of modern-day Stirling.

With the Scottish lowlands in the hands of the English though, the kingdom of Alba isn't going to much more than an occasional nuisance unless it acts in conjunction with a rival kingdom to tackle Northumbria. Anything more specific upon the relations between the two kingdoms is again reliant upon you providing a POD though.

Thats enough of my rambling though. Have you got any thoughts upon what you want to do with a potential timeline? If so I can into far more detail than I have done if you need any help drawing it up.
 
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Ah, ignore the bit about the Normans...that just the bias of a Yorkshireman ;)



I think its more a case of me advising you not to make certain glaring mistakes that I did, but what the hell.

For England:

The trend in Anglo-Saxon England was towards consolidation into larger kingdoms during the sixth and seventh centuries, but from the seventh century onwards the borders of each kingdom began to settle and didn't change really from this point until the arrival of the Danes jumpstarted the unification of England under the House of Wessex. I think this has as much to with the depelopment of a functioning church-governed bureaucracy as with an early regional identity (as Mercians or East Anglians) that made governance easier for the migrating royal courts of the time. As it became easier over time to raise larger numbers of thanes for the royal households and collect more freemen to serve in the fyrd it meant that it became harder for Anglo-Saxon kingdoms to conquer one another. The Danes on the other hand, often striking along or through border regions with relatively great speed and in great numbers, were able to sidestep this problem and this is why Anglo-Saxon Kings found it so difficult to counter these invasions without reform of their armies like that undertaken by King Alfred of Wessex. Therefore I'd say that any land grabs by Northumbrian Kings should be relatively close to whatever POD you decide upon. Northumbria would also benefit from some form of natural boundary to discourage attacks from Mercia, so perhaps expanding the kingdom south to the River Trent as I did in my TL might be a solution.

Depending upon your preferences then, you might wind up with three to five decent-sized kingdoms covering modern England and the Scottish lowlands by the time of the Danish invasions.This stronger Northumbria might initially collapse like in OTL but with a stronger, more established dynasty might be able to revive under a capable ruler, though that would leave Mercia or Wessex to spearhead the drive for unification. Alternatively Northumbria might weather the Danish attacks like Wessex, and between the two the invaders are slowly squeezed out of England entirely without leaving behind any identifiable Danelaw, which in the end would lead to a truely awesome showdown. Theres not much chance of making two separate English kingdoms work, so ultimately you'd have to pick a favourite and allow it to unify England.

For more specific advice upon religion you'd have to provide a POD however as during the reign of King Eadwine you'd be spreading Roman Catholicism to the River Forth, but the later you leave the POD then the more likely it becomes that Irish forms of christianity will be adopted instead. The real butterflies for christianity will involve Europe however, as depending on how well the Franks fare in your TL will affect the eventual English conversion efforts in German-speaking regions. I can't see any glaringly obvious reason for this not to take place, barring bouts of serious infighting within the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms themselves, so depending upon your choices you could end up with an independent kingdom of Frisia, or an independent kingdom of Saxony, or both, or a complete failure to covert anybody along the coastline of the Germanic Ocean (the North Sea).

Scotland is unfortunaterly less of an area of expertise for me, but I'll do my best:

As I said before I can't see how you can really prevent the Picts from being absorbed into the wider Gaelic-speaking culture given the influence of the Irish church and the steady expansionism of the Dal Riatan Kings. Better kingship might see the Kingdom of Alba keep possession of or even regain some of its old holdings on the Ireland with an early POD and a channel-spanning Gaelic kingdom would be an interesting addition to a TL, though instability between the two halves of the kingdom might cause problems for even a string of decent kings.

Viking enclaves on the mainland of Scotland or Ireland and on the offshore islands around them are still likely to develop, but their success or failure ultimately depends upon the degree to which the Danes and Norse there become unified. Too little and eventually they will lose their holdings to renewed Scottisah and Irish attacks, but if its too much then its likely to take several centuries of effort for a developed Scandinavian presence to be fully reduced. I'd ultimately see the border with England settling along the River Forth, or perhaps a little further south to the northern banks of the River Clyde in the west if the Scots maintain control of modern-day Stirling.

With the Scottish lowlands in the hands of the English though, the kingdom of Alba isn't going to much more than an occasional nuisance unless it acts in conjunction with a rival kingdom to tackle Northumbria. Anything more specific upon the relations between the two kingdoms is again reliant upon you providing a POD though.

Thats enough of my rambling though. Have you got any thoughts upon what you want to do with a potential timeline? If so I can into far more detail than I have done if you need any help drawing it up.



I wonder if Northumbria actually being conquered by the Danes might affect its identity (and perhaps the Celtic church as well) leading to eventually conquering or union with England but still a fairly strong identity.


As for Scotland i want a Gaelic Scotland not anything to do with Picts, so that could go ahead in much the same way. Yeah i can't see Scots and Irish staying together for very long specially if England starts invasions.


And for the timeline, try make the world as much like ours but with Gaelic Scotland and some sort of stronger Northumbrian identity. I've not thought of POD's yet but i need to look more into stuff just now when im not busy.
 
I wonder if Northumbria actually being conquered by the Danes might affect its identity (and perhaps the Celtic church as well) leading to eventually conquering or union with England but still a fairly strong identity.

It did in OTL in Northumberland and Yorkshire

And for the timeline, try make the world as much like ours but with Gaelic Scotland and some sort of stronger Northumbrian identity. I've not thought of POD's yet but i need to look more into stuff just now when im not busy.

Changing things that early on in history unfortunately means that, beyond having nations with the same names, you'll likely not recognise it.
 
It did in OTL in Northumberland and Yorkshire



Changing things that early on in history unfortunately means that, beyond having nations with the same names, you'll likely not recognise it.


Well changing it more than simply names a sort of vague difference identity difference between north and south. Harold gambles and just waits for William instead of going to meet Harald and still looses (i think this would also mean by an odd way of fate both invasions land on almost the same day). Or takes another risk and splits his army only for them both to be defeated.
The aftermath for the Norse could be allot more interest in England and probably conflict with the Normans as they march north. Following some battles in Norse favour (but defensive ones i think) Harald does get killed weakening moral of the Norse (at the same time William could also go about subduing rebellions also). This then leaves a space for another Norse king (a bit of an ambitious one that is) to come and take the north but without the desires for the throne of England.


Yeah i know i won't exactly recognize it.
 
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