Northern Star, a timeline with a united Scandinavia

[Oddball]

And what about the flag? I would propose the swedish flag; besides being the most beautiful, it would balance the fact of København (a danish city) being the capital and the language being west-scandinavian, derivated from norwegian and coming from norwegian territory. The swedes sure would be pleased with this.

I dont even think the Swedish flag exsisted yet:

The exact age of the Swedish Flag is not known, but the oldest recorded pictures of a blue cloth with a yellow cross date from the 16th century. As decreed in a royal warrant of 1569, the yellow cross was always to be borne on Swedish battle standards and banners, as the Swedish Coat of Arms was blue divided quarterly by a cross of gold. The design of the Swedish flag is probably taken from the Danish flag, and its blue and yellow colours possibly come from the Coat of Arms. Not until the 1620s, i.e., during the reign of Gustav II Adolf. do we find any reliable evidence of the blue flag with a yellow cross being carried by Swedish vessels. According to our oldest existing flag warrant, from 1663, a triple-tailed flag was to be used except by merchant ships, whose flag was square-cut

Wasn't there a Kalmar Union flag?

Yes, but IMHO it was butt ugly. Horendous use of colours

 

[Oddball]

I think that København would be the best choice for the capital city.
but I was thinking, if the icelandic writings would be used to form the basis written language, how would be spelled that name? Well, the ancient name was Kjøbmandehavn, I don't know when this name was no more used.
and, for you swedes, remember that low german had a heavy influence over your language, another legacy of the Hansa. danish was also heavy influenced. the norwegians gradually lost their language in favour to danish.
so, if Skania (or the name that they would call it) get to minimize the Hansa's influence, as it would happen if the country get richer, more stable and better structured, and if these icelandic writings were recovered, the most probably would be that the scandinavian language turns very different from the today's mainland scandinavian languages. at the time norwegian was much similar to icelandic and the other atlantic scandinavian languages. so there would be no terrain to low-german's influence.

I think german was the language used in the administration and at the royal court, but I could be wrong...

I want to continue this, and let the population elswere talk their dialect. It wont be until mutch later a standardisation of the written language will be introduced

Once again a subject Im unsure of. Please continue the brainstorming

 

[Gustav Þorsson]

Yes, but IMHO it was butt ugly. Horendous use of colours

good to see that we share the opinion about that infamous ugly flag
well, anyway the scandinavian flag will follow the danebrog model. the question is which two (not three, please) colours will be used. if the swedish flag doesn't exist at the time, far better, it would be easier to make it the future national flag.
mind, oddball, that the stability, the structuration and the economical development that you are bringing to these lands will lessen the Hansa's and low-german's influence. mind that soon will become imperative releasing from such external influences, as the country grow stronger. in my opinion the best would be recover soon these writings (we'll need that prince or similar; the naval voyages to there we've already gotten) to at least become the court's language (as there's an interest of cultural and economic independence behind it, you know). the language would gradually gain more and more importance, and perhaps suffer some influence, mainly from the then-danish (as the capital is in danish territory). as norwegian was very similar to icelandic, in norway it would be easier (perhaps the first language academy or university would be opened in Oslo). I think that some little modernizations would be done in the old icelandic, mainly vowel suitings (the add of the ø and the cut of the z(which really occurred) and the ð; no umlauts, please!) and cutting of accents. if the language gain foot in norway, and then in danmark, it could then be applied in sweden (where the german influence was stronger), finland and estland without problems (as the country would be then sufficiently united).
and remember that the letters C, Q and W would also not be used; some city names would have to be changed, like Stockholm to Stokkholm (far better)
I want to read more opinions about this

 

[Oddball]

good to see that we share the opinion about that infamous ugly flag
well, anyway the scandinavian flag will follow the danebrog model. the question is which two (not three, please) colours will be used. if the swedish flag doesn't exist at the time, far better, it would be easier to make it the future national flag.
mind, oddball, that the stability, the structuration and the economical development that you are bringing to these lands will lessen the Hansa's and low-german's influence. mind that soon will become imperative releasing from such external influences, as the country grow stronger. in my opinion the best would be recover soon these writings (we'll need that prince or similar; the naval voyages to there we've already gotten) to at least become the court's language (as there's an interest of cultural and economic independence behind it, you know). the language would gradually gain more and more importance, and perhaps suffer some influence, mainly from the then-danish (as the capital is in danish territory). as norwegian was very similar to icelandic, in norway it would be easier (perhaps the first language academy or university would be opened in Oslo). I think that some little modernizations would be done in the old icelandic, mainly vowel suitings (the add of the ø and the cut of the z(which really occurred) and the ð; no umlauts, please!) and cutting of accents. if the language gain foot in norway, and then in danmark, it could then be applied in sweden (where the german influence was stronger), finland and estland without problems (as the country would be then sufficiently united).
and remember that the letters C, Q and W would also not be used; some city names would have to be changed, like Stockholm to Stokkholm (far better)
I want to read more opinions about this

Outch! And I tought I was going too mutch in detail

In the period traditionally dated to 1350-1525, Norwegian went through a Middle Norwegian transition toward Modern Norwegian. The major changes were simplification of the morphology, a more fixed syntax, and a considerable adoption of Middle Saxon vocabulary. Similar development happened in Swedish and Danish, keeping the dialect continuum in continental Scandinavia intact. This did however not happen in Faroese and Icelandic so these languages lost mutual intelligibility with continental Scandinavia.

Based on this, I think I can incorporate something about the Union's language. I must admit that I had not intended to look into this, but constructive critics/suggestions have to be rewarded

Mind you, I am NOT going to develop a language tough...

 

[Fyrwulf]

How about that for a flag? It uses the Danish red and the Swedish blue, plus white as a neutral divider. I can also do the cool wavy thing to it.
​

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

How about that for a flag? It uses the Danish red and the Swedish blue, plus white as a neutral divider. I can also do the cool wavy thing to it.​

How about doing either the cross or the backround in yellow? It doesn't look very good, IMHO.

 

[Fyrwulf]

If you've ever seen the Kalmar flag, you'd know that yellow clashes horribly with red. I tried it just to be sure and it confirmed my thoughts. What's wrong with primary colors? Perhaps you'd care to submit a critique that is more detailed, that way I don't have to go blindly groping around?

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

How about this?

 

[Fyrwulf]

Like I said, yellow clashes horribly with red. *shudders* If somebody wants to do something like that, they're free to use my flag as a base, but I want no part of it.

 

[Gustav Þorsson]

oddball, remember that you are filling Europe with one more long-term power. more than perhaps you wish, it would cause differences in the development of History. foresee these differences, based on what you're doing that differs from real history, is a must here. this, however, doesn't mean turning your time line chaotic nor leaving plausibility. unplausible would be ignoring these factors. a new, ascendent and vibrant society would bring new philosophers and scientists; you can't neglect this. and some of their ideas might be a bit different. for example, if that prince, with much free time and a adventurer spirit, get access to those writings, this would lead many consequences. first, this will make sure the scandinavians will reach northern america, again. and reaching these lands, the europeans would therefore learn that leif eiriksson had discovered "america"(the name that they'll call it). second, such findings would increase the prestige of the scandinavians. this would allow to further unite and strengthen the country, and would open way to new writers and ideas. for example, a different way of colonizing. the support of the king, the naval development and the geographical proximity could originate a model in which the crown don't loose control over the new lands. the new lands would be regarded as integral and functional parts of the crown. new colonists could be gain by the sagas' popularity spread and by king's support. this would influence other nations' future colonies aswell. third, these such old writings would be invoked as a standard language, as it would avoid struggles between the different dialects of mainland scandinavia, as they are both historical records and poetry. such old and important writings of the time when the scandinavians spoke the same old-norse hold the legitimacy for it.
well sorry if it's too much detailed but I think that details are good if they're good structured and plausible.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Like I said, yellow clashes horribly with red. *shudders* If somebody wants to do something like that, they're free to use my flag as a base, but I want no part of it.

Well I think it looks nice. If you don't want the credit..... fine!

 

[Grimm Reaper]

The long-term effects should be interesting.

Considering the various Scandinavian fishing fleets and Norway's enormous merchant marine, one suspects that we might see a more respectable naval role for Kalmar(my interim name until you decide).

Has anyone here ever played Third Reich from Avalon Hill? Would love to cobble a new power into the game. Hmmm...based on the existing forces in the game and the populations they had in 1939...

In the game Norway had two 1-3 infantry, Denmark had a 1-3 infantry and 1-4 air factor, Sweden had five 2-3 infantry, a 2-4 air factor and a pair of 2 naval factors, while Finland had a 2-4 air factor and five 2-3 infantry. If I extrapolate...

Denmark/Norway aka "All we are saying...is give peace a chance".

Four 1-3, two 2-3, two 1-4.


Sweden aka "Better safe than sorry"

Twelve 2-3, three 1-4, eight naval factors.


Finland aka "Are you lookin' at me?"

Fifteen 2-3, six 1-4, six naval factors, three 2-5 armored divisions.

 

[Redbeard]

The long-term effects should be interesting.

Considering the various Scandinavian fishing fleets and Norway's enormous merchant marine, one suspects that we might see a more respectable naval role for Kalmar(my interim name until you decide).

Has anyone here ever played Third Reich from Avalon Hill? Would love to cobble a new power into the game. Hmmm...based on the existing forces in the game and the populations they had in 1939...

In the game Norway had two 1-3 infantry, Denmark had a 1-3 infantry and 1-4 air factor, Sweden had five 2-3 infantry, a 2-4 air factor and a pair of 2 naval factors, while Finland had a 2-4 air factor and five 2-3 infantry. If I extrapolate...

Denmark/Norway aka "All we are saying...is give peace a chance".

Four 1-3, two 2-3, two 1-4.


Sweden aka "Better safe than sorry"

Twelve 2-3, three 1-4, eight naval factors.


Finland aka "Are you lookin' at me?"

Fifteen 2-3, six 1-4, six naval factors, three 2-5 armored divisions.

I would not recommend using an Avalon Hill Game based on a perception of OTL 1939 for evaluating an ATL 1939, centuries after the PoD.

Anyway in 1939 both Norway and especially Denmark had been through som heavy disarmament in the early 30's, where Sweden much more retained her armed neutrality policy.

All in all the economical/educational etc. level pr. capita of the three Scandinavian countries were quite alike and simply using the population size to set contributions would be far more accurate.

You could of course put in plenty of PoDs over the centuries changing demographical and economical development. For instance Denmark would probabably contain Scania, Halland and Blekinge (S.Sweden), as well as most if not all of S-H. In present day populations that would give a Denmark of 9+ millions and a Sweden of 8 millions.

If however Scandinavia is freed of centuries of internal strides my best bid is for an accelerated demographical and economical development - more people and more money. First of all the old Scandinavian trading cities will be much larger and richer and next I guess much of the population surplus will cross the Baltic. First in the old trading cities there (Danzig, Königsberg, Riga, Reval etc.) but probably also N. Germany (Bremen, Hamburg, Rostock, Stralsund). These areas are likely to be far more Scandinavian, perhaps even to the extent of total domination.

This of course doesn't necessarily mean these areas/cities being incoporated into a Scandinavian entity (respecting Oddballs wish for "limited edition") but it is difficult to get a Baltic area looking like OTL.

Concerning the flag issue beware of not reversing the flow of time - letting a 14th/15th century PoD produce a flag looking like a conglomeration of 17th-19th century flags is not that convincing. Seen from the time of the Kalmar union it will be a question of Dannebrog (the Royal Flag) or the special Kalmar flag. I agree the Kalmar flag is but uggly and to be avoided if possible. An alternative could be the Three Crowns which was used by both Danish and Swedish Kings in OTL, but today has evolved into the Swedish coat of arms. Yellow on blue are unlikely though. Way before nationalism and the 17th century Danish-Swedish duels the Dannebrog will not contain the "Danish only" symbolism of OTL however, but rather be the symbol of Royal power. In other words: The stronger Royal power dominates the Kalmar the more likely Dannebrog as the common symbol is, and the more it is a looser federation with lots of interests to co-exist, the more likely an alternative flag is. BTW I actually think the "Norwegian" flag with yellow replacing white looks very good. IMHO the problem with yellow and red is only when yellow is the dominant colour.


Regards

Steffen Redbeard

 

[Gustav Þorsson]

Seen from the time of the Kalmar union it will be a question of Dannebrog (the Royal Flag) or the special Kalmar flag. I agree the Kalmar flag is but uggly and to be avoided if possible. An alternative could be the Three Crowns which was used by both Danish and Swedish Kings in OTL, but today has evolved into the Swedish coat of arms. Yellow on blue are unlikely though.

And which colours were used for the Three Crowns symbol?

 

[Oddball]

You could of course put in plenty of PoDs over the centuries changing demographical and economical development. For instance Denmark would probabably contain Scania, Halland and Blekinge (S.Sweden), as well as most if not all of S-H. In present day populations that would give a Denmark of 9+ millions and a Sweden of 8 millions.

Agree

If however Scandinavia is freed of centuries of internal strides my best bid is for an accelerated demographical and economical development - more people and more money. First of all the old Scandinavian trading cities will be much larger and richer and next I guess much of the population surplus will cross the Baltic. First in the old trading cities there (Danzig, Königsberg, Riga, Reval etc.) but probably also N. Germany (Bremen, Hamburg, Rostock, Stralsund). These areas are likely to be far more Scandinavian, perhaps even to the extent of total domination.

Do you mean Scandinavian cultural domination in all those non Scandinavian, Baltic cities

If yes, Im not sure I agree

Concerning the flag issue beware of not reversing the flow of time - letting a 14th/15th century PoD produce a flag looking like a conglomeration of 17th-19th century flags is not that convincing. Seen from the time of the Kalmar union it will be a question of Dannebrog (the Royal Flag) or the special Kalmar flag. I agree the Kalmar flag is but uggly and to be avoided if possible. An alternative could be the Three Crowns which was used by both Danish and Swedish Kings in OTL, but today has evolved into the Swedish coat of arms. Yellow on blue are unlikely though. Way before nationalism and the 17th century Danish-Swedish duels the Dannebrog will not contain the "Danish only" symbolism of OTL however, but rather be the symbol of Royal power.

Very true

 

[Oddball]

Based on this, I think I can incorporate something about the Union's language. I must admit that I had not intended to look into this, but constructive critics/suggestions have to be rewarded

Iv done some research on the language part, and Iv come to the conclusion that it is too early to do anything about a standarized language. OTL Europe did not start with things like this until the 17th century.

My best bet at this point is that a stronger government and more united Scandinavia will split the languages even less than OTL. I do intend to keep this in mind tough

 

[Gustav Þorsson]

Iv done some research on the language part, and Iv come to the conclusion that it is too early to do anything about a standarized language. OTL Europe did not start with things like this until the 17th century.

My best bet at this point is that a stronger government and more united Scandinavia will split the languages even less than OTL. I do intend to keep this in mind tough

Of course. Sorry if I didn't make it clear, but I was thinking in a future standardised language. But I maintain my position that the scandinavians should reach north america soon. In the truth, having internal peace and stability, having enough naval interest, having stories and beliefs (among the atlantic scandinavians) about these lands, and being so close, it wouldn't be coherent not reaching there again soon. And even if nobody wants it, it can still occur by accident, like occurred many times.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

How about this?

personally I don't mind this flag..though I would have reversed the Blue and yellow.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

And which colours were used for the Three Crowns symbol?

blue and yellow?

 

[Gustav Þorsson]

blue and yellow?

This is what I also thought. I only don't understand why not these colours in the future national flag, if he mentions that the Three Crowns were a symbol for both courts.