North African Elephant didn´t die out 2nd century AC.

Hannibal´s North African Elephant didn´t die out 2nd century AC.

What if Hannibal´s little (2,50 m) Elephants, who might have been a subspecies or different species of African Elephant survived into the Renaissance and further (we should have the Roman Empire not slaying big mammals for entertainment). They were pretty tameable , so of what use could they have been for different cultures/Empires. Imagine the Vandals use them and breed them and encounter Byzantine with them.
 
Last edited:
What if Hannibal´s little (2,50 m) Elephants, who might have been a subspecies or different species of African Elephant survived into the Renaissance and further (when should have the Roman Empire not slaying big mammals for entertainment). They were pretty tameable , so of what use could they have been for different cultures/Empires. Imagine the Romans tame them, too, like they originally intended. Or Vandals use them and breed them and encounter the Byzantines with them.

Any thoughts ?
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
You've got to remember that preserving these elephants could drastically change the timeline. So ignore the Vandals, ignore the Byzantines, the don't exist.

Now if they are preserved? Where are they kept? IF they are docile enough, useful manpower-replacement, which would increase productivity of the Empire.

If only military uses, then the Romans can use elephants in their war machine. Elephants clad in woolen leathers fighting across the Rhine and in Britain? I can think of few things more terrifying than a wool and leather-covered Elephant charging me in a forest, with accompanying Romans.

Assuming the Roman Empire can keep sole control of them, then the Romans have a unique military advantage that nobody else can mimic. Potential ATL Attila vs Elephants? Especially Elephants trained for war? Sure horses are twice the pace, but an Elephant can carry a scorpion, and be used to carry explosive ammunition to be fired.
 
You've got to remember that preserving these elephants could drastically change the timeline. So ignore the Vandals, ignore the Byzantines, the don't exist.

Now if they are preserved? Where are they kept? IF they are docile enough, useful manpower-replacement, which would increase productivity of the Empire.

If only military uses, then the Romans can use elephants in their war machine. Elephants clad in woolen leathers fighting across the Rhine and in Britain? I can think of few things more terrifying than a wool and leather-covered Elephant charging me in a forest, with accompanying Romans.

Assuming the Roman Empire can keep sole control of them, then the Romans have a unique military advantage that nobody else can mimic. Potential ATL Attila vs Elephants? Especially Elephants trained for war? Sure horses are twice the pace, but an Elephant can carry a scorpion, and be used to carry explosive ammunition to be fired.

I think you're overstating the advantages here. Lots of countries had had access to elephants and still been beaten by the pachyderm-deficient Romans.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
I think you're overstating the advantages here. Lots of countries had had access to elephants and still been beaten by the pachyderm-deficient Romans.

I'd disagree, I'm stating a couple of scenarios.

They certainly aren't a magic bullet for the Roman Empire, but I can't see a way where having elephants in military use (which seems inevitable to me if they survive) isn't a plus for the Empire, and therefore, 476 may not be a collapse date.

It may just be 500 AD instead.

Though you're right, Elephants aren't invincible, pikes worked remarkably well against them. I just thing Romans using them as "Scorpion Mahouts" is a bloody good idea.
 
I'd disagree, I'm stating a couple of scenarios.

They certainly aren't a magic bullet for the Roman Empire, but I can't see a way where having elephants in military use (which seems inevitable to me if they survive) isn't a plus for the Empire, and therefore, 476 may not be a collapse date.

It may just be 500 AD instead.

Though you're right, Elephants aren't invincible, pikes worked remar{ably well against them. I just thing Romans using them as "Scorpion Mahouts" is a bloody good idea.

Well, the Asian elephant is bigger than the Hannibal North African elephant, it might be a better option as a"scorpion Mahout". Maybe engeneers figure out how to transplant Ballista-artillery on them, could be an impressive combination of Asian and North African elephant mounted artillery. It is not exactly known how tameable the massive Syrian elephant had been, but it is rumored that Hannibal posessed one.
 
The North African Elephant was more then just used in gladiator fights, but also suffered at the expense of growing human populations using water, raising livestock, and seeking ivory. You have to postpone the development of that region of North Africa, or at least integration of the region into the bigger world.

The issue is the humans and large mammals competing for a rather small strip of land on the coast and Atlas mountains. It's likely these Elephants were remnants of Green Sahara populations, and perhaps not the most genetically fit beings. Bad genes, human exploitation, habitat loss, and any climatic shifts during the period are very important things to consider. Only two of those factors are alterable by humans.
 
I think they would be most valuable used for engineering by the Legions and wealthy landowners. I could imagine the senate proclaiming a state monopoly on the elephants, and organizing the breeding of more.

The north african kind was smaller, so it could have a shorter gestation, and maturity progression.
 
What if Hannibal´s little (2,50 m) Elephants, who might have been a subspecies or different species of African Elephant survived into the Renaissance and further (we should have the Roman Empire not slaying big mammals for entertainment). They were pretty tameable , so of what use could they have been for different cultures/Empires. Imagine the Vandals use them and breed them and encounter Byzantine with them.

uh.. wasn't the day of the elephant as a war machine pretty much over by Vandal times? IIRC, there were too many countermeasures in place that could panic/stampede them. As for domestic use... well, they would be great for hauling very heavy loads and some things in construction, but for farming and most other things, horses are cheaper and better...
 
uh.. wasn't the day of the elephant as a war machine pretty much over by Vandal times? IIRC, there were too many countermeasures in place that could panic/stampede them. As for domestic use... well, they would be great for hauling very heavy loads and some things in construction, but for farming and most other things, horses are cheaper and better...

The Sassanids still used their Asian Elephants in their wars against the Byzantine Empire in late antique times and early medival ages. On the Indian subcontinent they had been used much much later.
 
Top