Norse North America
- Thread starter Ravenflight
- Start date
Yes, well this is where I've been going with this thread... however trying to work out the why's and wherefore's as to why it didn't happen. Naturally it indeed DID happen, but on such a small scale as to not have any impact.
So, it begs the question, what is required for the effort to be made to have a larger more successful colony.
Scandinavia, not having a large population to begin with doesn't strike me as particularly ideal. Distances involved also disuade people from going ahead with making the effort. Leif Eriksson seemed to consider the land as 'pretty much worthless'. So, what DID they want? The raids of the Vikings tended to go with slaves and gold. Slaves aren't a problem because the natives could supply that, BUT that's hardly a way to win friends and influence people. Similarly with gold. If there was gold there, going in and taking it makes it hard to win friends and influence people.
So, anyone have any thoughts on what the Norse could get from North America?
To my way of thinking (and I could be way out here) the only thing that the Norse can bring to the table is metal working. Without that any other technology that they bring would be lost. So, it seems to me that we want the Beothuk (or similar) to have already reasonably well established metal working techniques, but at a poorer level than medieval Europe. Bronze age perhaps?
So, if that's the case, what are the ramifications of a Bronze age culture in North America 900A.D?
The Inca had bronze working, but are several hundred years later. So why do people in Europe Africa and Asia have Bronze thousands of years ago, but it took thousands of years to develope it in the Americas? What is the catalyst?
katchen
Banned
If the Norse get far enough up the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes System, the Marquette Range has large amounts of Iron. Then again, so does the upper Hamilton River in Markland OTL (Schaefferville OTL). The Keewanee Peninsula has a very rich copper deposit. A number of Roman America wank AHs have used that to the hilt. And if the Norse really bother to look for it, Greenland has some major gold deposits OTL although how rich they are, I don't know. Does anyone?
There is also gold and silver in Horarland (Baffin Island OTL) http://www.commanderresources.com/s/BaffinIsland.asp, again, if the Norse have someone aboard their ships who comes from gold and silver bearing areas and knows what to look for in rocks. If this gold and silver is found ITTL, Denmark will be minting it's own krona for centuries to come and will NOT be abandoning Greenland or North America. That would in itself make for an interesting TL---Terranova precious metals keeping the Union of Kalmar alive and making it possible the Danes to hire enough Mercenaries to put down Gustavus Vasa's rebellion and keep Sweden down. A Scanian Lutheran version of Spain under King Christian IX opposing France and Austria in the 30 years War while able to hire unlimited mercenaries. And a Danish flota or fleet as a counterpoint to the Spanish flota from the New World in the 17th and 18th Century.
There is also gold and silver in Horarland (Baffin Island OTL) http://www.commanderresources.com/s/BaffinIsland.asp, again, if the Norse have someone aboard their ships who comes from gold and silver bearing areas and knows what to look for in rocks. If this gold and silver is found ITTL, Denmark will be minting it's own krona for centuries to come and will NOT be abandoning Greenland or North America. That would in itself make for an interesting TL---Terranova precious metals keeping the Union of Kalmar alive and making it possible the Danes to hire enough Mercenaries to put down Gustavus Vasa's rebellion and keep Sweden down. A Scanian Lutheran version of Spain under King Christian IX opposing France and Austria in the 30 years War while able to hire unlimited mercenaries. And a Danish flota or fleet as a counterpoint to the Spanish flota from the New World in the 17th and 18th Century.
I don't think that the availability of Iron would be a factor. The Longships would be able to get anywhere they want to go within Canada. They had them go all over European Russia the same way, so can certainly get there, but it's more a case of 'what's the point'. I mean, Iron was hardly a hard to come by metal. In my (hopeful) TL it would be a case of showing the locals how to work iron rather than bronze - a fairly straightforward technological leap. Going from NOTHING to smelting iron is a fairly large leap (IMHO).
Yes, well, maybe making the locals be commonly using Copper may be a good setp forward. Have to look into that a little bit (and confirm Evil's comment about small amounts of tin. There is loads of Tin in Peru, but none that I can quickly find in Canada).
I was a little more interested in making the 'New World' more technologically advanced than it was in OTL for when the Europeans eventually come over. That's certainly an interesting ATL, but not what I was looking for. If the Norse DID locate vast deposits of gold that would change things a lot, but it wouldn't necessarily advance the technology of the locals - except on how their overlords make their enslavement more effective.
With a golden Greenland, colonization of Vinland would certainly continue enough to at least imbue a little bit if technological advance into at least the local natives, and perhaps spread the diseases, but not necessarily enough to make a big American Empire. They probably weren't numerically equipped for more than trade posts.
I think the Norse presence was really close to taking off, but came down on the wrong side of the knifes edge. A slightly different landing point for Vinland, a Jarl and a local chief with good chemistry...that might be all it'd take.
For an actual Norse, as opposed to Norse-Native settlement, we'd need to do something about Vinlands PR problem. (Far away, hostile natives, not really any products you can't get closer to home) Vinalnd was at the end of a very long population supply chain where every link dropped the number of available colonists seriously.
Fishing was a mainstay.
As I remeber, Erik the Red was a pagan, his wife was christian. Leif was christian, his sister pagan. The Greenland of the day that supplied the people for Vinland, was, I think 50/50.
I've wanted something like that too. I'd be like a sci-fi story, but seen form the other side of time. There have been a number of inventions that have totally changed both civilization and warfare.
Agriculture. Husbandry. Iron working. Horse riding. The stirrup. The plow. Sails. The norse had all of those, as well as an agriculture and domesticates package well suited for North America. And the best sailing and navigations package in the world for the conditions.
Its about 5000 years worth of the most spectacular developments in history being made available.
Part of the problem I've found is that the Beothucks was really very badly suited for this. Hunter-gathererers with low population density and on a terrain not great for agriculture. If North America were Europe, they would be the Saami, not the Byzantines.
A tribe up the st. Lawrence would be better, I think.
I tend to agree.
Very significant products! Straight conifer timber, nonexistent in both Greenland and Iceland. And rather better summers to ripen grain compared to either Greenland or Iceland.
True. But would small numbers of colonists prevent the settlement from being predominantly Norse?
The distance from the Eastern Settlement of Greenland to Western Settlement was also big - not much less than the distance Eastern Settlement to Vinland.
In fact, you provide reasons below why the Norse would not mix much with natives in Newfoundland...
Precisely. And the Saami got along with the Norse for a millennium. They may have been maltreated, but they were never exterminated to this day, nor did they rise up and destroy the Norse intruders on their shores.
But this means that the Beothuks also will not assimilate the Norse. A few hundred Norse in a cluster of a few tens of farms - Erik landed in Greenland with 560 souls, Western Settlement never reached 1000 souls, Thorfinn Karlsefni had 150 - would deal with a number of Beothuk bands of a few tens of souls each, scattered over a large territory. Even in they got together to exterminate the colony, they would recover only a tiny piece of hunting grounds. The Norse, even though they are far outnumbered by the total population of Beothuk, can fight them off, or afford to compensate them for the land they occupy.
Sure, individual Beothuks can intermarry and move into the Norse society, as slaves or as free in-laws. But I expect that it would be a small trickle, who adopt Norse customs, learn their language and assimilate... except for skin colour and, if free, kin ties with the Beothuk in the forests.
Yes.
I expect both a near-pure Norse settlement on Newfoundland, and a mainly mixed settlement at Hochelaga.
This was part of the premise of Makemakean's Adamantine Age timeline: as Scandinavia christianizes, the pagans move to the New World.
Cheers,
Ganesha
Ok, So going from Newfoundland to the top of the Great Lakes... how difficult is it?
I know of Niagara Falls of course, so that would have to be dealt with. What other falls and/or rapids are there between Newfoundland and Lake Superior?
I know of Niagara Falls of course, so that would have to be dealt with. What other falls and/or rapids are there between Newfoundland and Lake Superior?
Evilprodigy
Donor
There are several rapids along the St. Lawrence, IIRC there is an especially nasty set near Montreal. Other than that and Niagara the connections between the great lakes are more or less clear. And even if they weren't it isn't like the Norse couldn't portage around them. They did much longer portage routes with more difficult terrain when they were in Russia.
Lachine alone is less than 5 km rapids.
But the problem is that there are exactly several rapids. The distance from Montreal to Prescott and Ogdensburg, at the head of rapids, is 190 km. In the old canal system, before Seaway, these 190 km required 6 canals, combined length 70 km. The remaining 120 km was in the 5 natural pools, but the longest of them, Lake St. Francis between Long Sault Rapids above and Cascades below was just 53 km at one stretch.
Which means that the Norse will either have a long portage to maintain, or several portages with only short pools between them.
For comparison, the whole Niagara portage between Queenston and Grass Island Pool is 11 km or so.
There are rapids at Buffalo, but these are deep and mild, not too hard to surmount passing the Squaw Island.
Detroit River has mild rapids around Fighting Island where it flows on rocky bottom. But the natural depth 4 m at Limekiln Crossing was an issue for late 19th century deep-draught ships - non-issue for Norse.
Saint Clair River is rapid and somewhat shallow at the outlet, under Blue Water Bridge. But again, a non-issue for Norse.
Finally, St. Mary´s Falls are less than 500 m long. So a very easy portage.
Thank you both for your comments.
Interesting to see that getting to the top of the Greak Lakes is made more difficult by 'the other bits' than by Niagara Falls. I think intuitively people would mostly say 'NO WAY! What about Niagara Falls' and as Mr Evil said, some of the portages through Russia were worse.
Now to get into the Mississippi...
Evilprodigy
Donor
Easy. There are rivers out of Thunder Bay that go northwest, short portage to Lake of the Woods and bam. You are in the Mississippi River Basin.
Coincidentally that region also intersects with the Arctic (Hudson Bay) Watershed. I've actually been there, it's a every short distance but -40 degrees Celsius during winter.
Precisely. That is one of the portages across the divide, but many are better.
And one is outstandingly the best. Chicago Portage. From Chicago River through Mud Lake to Des Plaines River.
Precisely how long depends on how shallow is too shallow in Mud Lake, Portage Creek and headwaters of South Branch, Chicago River. It has variously been estimated between 3 and 13 km.
Then, Des Plaines and Illinois rivers go straight to Cahokia...
Yes, I didn't think it was difficult, but that was only going by Google Maps, and I have no first hand experience. One thing though, some of those bridges across the upper Mississippi seem fairly low... I wonder if the longships will fit under them
(yes, that's a joke).So I'm agreeing with the settlement in the Quebec City area as one base of operations and another higher up the Great Lakes.
The trips down the Mississippi would be 'adventures', and depending on how well the two settlements in the Great Lakes took off there would be settlements along the Mississippi.
Thoughts?
Evilprodigy
Donor
Quebec is a very good strategic location but a crappy one for the economy. Quebec city has these sheer cliffs that help protect it and a sheltered harbour area but it's only really useful as a spot to control the entrance to the St. Lawrence.
Montreal has the advantage of it's many islands to allow transportation of goods to be very easy across them, similar to New York with the East River, Hudson River, Manhattan Island, Staten Island, and Long Island all providing a natural harbour and easy to use searoutes for shot distance travel or Venice with it's canals. That's something incredibly useful for a middle ages society that lacks cars and railways. Montreal is also important because it lies at an easy portage route to Lake Champlain that takes you to the Pittsburg area and is at the point where the St. Lawrence and the Ottawa rivers meet. The Norse like their trade and those rivers and portages are vital. Granted you don't need to portage to get to Lake Champlain but it's faster if your destination is Montreal.
Lastly a good place for a colony on the Great Lakes is (excuse my nationalism) Toronto. We here in the greatest city that is and ever will be have a great distinct advantage compared to other cities in that we have a series of Islands and peninsulas that give Toronto a very large natural harbour. Feeding into that harbour is a source of fresh water called the Don River (Don't drink the water in Lake Ontario, if this ends up anything like OTL you will grow a third arm if you do.) and while not a major river it is still something of importance if you want to set up things like water mills to refine wheat into flour, for trade, and many other things.
Failing Toronto I would put good locations at Hamilton Ontario and Rochester New York, places with natural harbours but not nearly as large as Toronto's.
Those probably wound not happen until Vinland becomes a large colony of at least several hundred thousand to a million souls scattered about the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes drainage basin.
In 17th century, with guns to shoot down on ships trying to sail past. And even so the British ships managed to pass Quebec in 1759.
The other usefulness is reloading point. As far as Quebec, the channel is at least several km wide clear water. A 17th century big sailing ship might feel uncomfortable tacking upstream the narrow channel of St. Lawrence - an 11th century Norse knarr is a bit more maneuverable.
You do. There is a reason why Chambly Canal connects Chambly with Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, 20 km away.
If you are needing a portage anyway, then you might sail from Sorel through lower Richelieu to Chambly and then portage - but since you are sailing for Montreal anyway and portaging from there up St.Lawrence, it is also less than 50 km Montreal to Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu. Slightly longer portage but one fewer port to maintain.
OTL 17th century French had trouble settling at Montreal because of Iroquois raids. 11th century Norse would probably have found the Iroquois maize growers further south, and disunited before Hiawatha, so they would have found Montreal safe to settle before Quebec.
Why not Niagara? The mouth of Niagara is a natural harbour, Niagara has abundant fresh water and power, and the portage, from navigable lower course of Niagara at Lewiston/Queenston escarpment to the navigable Grass Island Pool on the brink of the Cascades is just 11 km. OTL, Niagara was a frontier since 1783... but in any TL where anyone ends up with both banks, whether USA, British North America, New France or Vinland Norse, why not a megacity on Niagara?
OTL French sent La Salle expedition to Mexican Gulf in 1680s, when there were just 12 000 souls in Quebec.
I feel I prefer chornedsnorkack's location of Niagara purely from the 'it's something different' perspective.
I'll have to look into it further naturally, and there are always reasons that a city is built where it is, but those reasons can be radically different depending on the period when settlement is made and exploration is done. For example, Botany Bay was considered the prime spot for the Sydney Settlement, until they actually explored and found the current site.
I'll have to look into it further naturally, and there are always reasons that a city is built where it is, but those reasons can be radically different depending on the period when settlement is made and exploration is done. For example, Botany Bay was considered the prime spot for the Sydney Settlement, until they actually explored and found the current site.