Seems to me it wouldn't take much to be a tad more polite to someone who's been on the forum for a month, who hasn't posted much outside of this very thread, and who admitted straight up that there were probably many threads addressing the topic and just was having a hard time finding them.
Norse North America
- Thread starter Ravenflight
- Start date
Seems to me it wouldn't take much to be a tad more polite to someone who's been on the forum for a month, who hasn't posted much outside of this very thread, and who admitted straight up that there were probably many threads addressing the topic and just was having a hard time finding them.
Thanks for your post. You are probably right. I think (after your post) a technology increase either has to be supported from the 'mother land' or be 'the next logical step' in technology that was already being used. I guess another 'keeper' would be if it were easy enough yet gave a big enough advantage to be worth the effort to keep the technology alive. Were your two story buildings just not worth the effort??? Would something different (iron for example) be harder, yet worth the effort? The Norse ship building skills would probably fall into the earlier category, but would require iron tools (the later category?) so may be self limiting.
Interesting conundrum!
Evilprodigy
Donor
What I did in my TL that spurred further colonization was the discovery of the plentiful fisheries in the Grand Banks. Being able to take your boat out, wait a few minutes for fish jumping out of the water to hop into your boat by mistake, then return full of fish makes for a very very easy sustainable food source for the colony.
When there is plentiful food more people are born and the wealth of the fisheries can certainly attract settlers from Iceland and Greenland over, especially after the climate starts to change. The issue would be taking the region from the natives or developing working relations with them. IIRC (it's been a while) I had the natives contract the common cold due to a sick Norseman that spread about the local area and badly hurt the population during the winter. What killed them was a mix of the cold, sickness, and starvation. What remained were taken in by the Norse and helped to start a trend of inviting in Natives (especially talented ones) into the colony that knew the land and knew how best to survive and hunt and all that in the area. The most important thing being the increase in women and therefore population growth.
When there is plentiful food more people are born and the wealth of the fisheries can certainly attract settlers from Iceland and Greenland over, especially after the climate starts to change. The issue would be taking the region from the natives or developing working relations with them. IIRC (it's been a while) I had the natives contract the common cold due to a sick Norseman that spread about the local area and badly hurt the population during the winter. What killed them was a mix of the cold, sickness, and starvation. What remained were taken in by the Norse and helped to start a trend of inviting in Natives (especially talented ones) into the colony that knew the land and knew how best to survive and hunt and all that in the area. The most important thing being the increase in women and therefore population growth.
Flubber
Banned
An easy food source for the people already there. The problem arises, as repeatedly discussed in the many earlier threads, of either luring or forcing enough people across the Atlantic to "Vinland" in the first place.
As one poster wisely wrote "Vinland would be a poor place to get rich and a good place to be poor."
Dom
Moderator
You've been warned for this brand of 'cynicism' before, so i'm just going to kick you. Please be politer in future.
This is very interesting and goes to my earlier post of the technology of ship building. I mean, did the natives know of the Grand Banks but not have big enough boats to brave the atlantic? Would Longships give them that advantage? Therefore 'you make the boats, we'll show you where to get more fish' kind of co-op.
Evilprodigy
Donor
Actually I was going to bring this up in response to Flubber's post above, though he got kicked so I didn't really want to continue that.
Regardless the Grand Banks are extremely plentiful, even close to the shoreline. You don't need to have good boats to travel out to go fish, however the Norse had far far more advanced shipbuilding and sailors than the natives did. So they could go out into deeper (and untapped) waters that the natives wouldn't have access too.
So while the Grand Banks is a great food source for the people already living these that is a bit of a mistake since the Norse won't be competing nearly as much with the natives for fish as the natives do with eachother since their fishing would be further away from the coast and likely on the boats they built like the Faering, Knarr, and Karve. Though most likely they would use Faerings since those are smaller vessels for poorer people and are supposed to be used for fishing compared to the other two which are larger merchant ships. However unlike the Faering they could much more easily have a sail, which might make them more useful for fishing further out from the coast.
Evilprodigy
Donor
I'm going to be starting a new one in the near future, though my workload at University is a bit rough right now so it will be some time before I post anything.
I much like the origin story of Vinland more than the 'after successful colonization' part.
Ahhh, tweaking a POD is better than twerking it.
Look forward to it. May University go well for you.
In regards to the Norse fishing the Grand Banks, I was under the impression that the Vikings did not fish. I may be wrong here, but I remember being told that they thought it was degrading to eat it or something, and was only once Christianity caught hold that they changed there minds. If I'm wrong please correct me.
Evilprodigy
Donor
I'm not quite sure if that even matters if true. Vinland was founded in the early 1000's, Christians had been in Scandinavia for about 300 years by that point. From what I am aware of everyone associated with Vinland that we have names for was Christian, including Leif Eriksson.
And another thing we have to be careful of when reading what various people did and didn't eat is the term 'Viking'. 'Viking' is a job description NOT a racial description. Therefore it MAY be true that Vikings (being a merchant/raiding type) didn't partake of the activity of fishing, but were quite happy to eat the stuff and/or the rest of the Norse population were quite happy to.
I also find it a little hard to accept that on long voyages the Vikings would not eat fish. I mean, water collection from rainfall to replenish stocks and fish from the sea. Depending on weather conditions you could stay at sea forever.
To expound on Mr Evil's comment, Vinland was discovered because of Leif Eriksson's commission to spread Christianity.
Evilprodigy
Donor
Alot of Vikings that went down and raiding Europe were common folk that farmed or grazed their sheep and likely fished. Considering we have a boat (Faering) that seemed to be perfectly designed for fishing it's most likely that people did fish. It seems a waste when they have such good fisheries, boats, and a lack of arable land. Back in Medieval Scandinavia if you had a farm you were considered pretty well off (normally by peasant standards), especially in Norway.
I am unsure about that part about the Vikings considering eating fish to be degrading thing since I have never heard it before. Any sources that can be dug up explaining or mentioning it would be most welcome since it could be useful for my TL.
Sorry, I had to post quickly before so I didn't get a chance to address something that I wanted to:
Yes, I wasn't trying to suggest that the Vikings were some kind of elite or what-not, I was merely saying that you can't throw all the Norse eggs into the 'Viking' basket. That would be like saying in 1970:
"British Offshore Oil Rig workers don't allow women on their workplace" and assuming that the British don't allow women in their society.
There is a difference between a Viking and the Norse. Whilst (pretty much, until the settlements in Ireland etc) all Vikings were Norse, not all Norse were Vikings.
Evilprodigy
Donor
I was more referring to the profession. Part of your post was talking about how they were men of the sea like merchants and fishermen. I'm saying that many of them were not traditionally users of boats.
When Greenland was settled by followers of Eric the Red, I seem to remember reading that many of their ships were lost in a storm at sea, and drowned. If we say that all those who OTL settled on Greenland, and the ones that OTL did not even get to Greenland, all survive, but are thrown off-course and land on a suitable part of the US or Canadian coast, then we have a fairly sizable start of a Norse settlement in the late 900s.