Normans kept their nordic language. And now?

Due of boredom I was looking at a France map and my eyes spotted the region, we call today the Normandy. I thought "What if the Normans never got franconised and kept their original language for whatever reason?"

So..how could this change history?
Would the Normannic region be independent from France?
How could change that the English language? Would English be a "middle thing" between Western Germanic and Northern Germanic? Or would a Normannic invasion of England never happen?
And what about the more further future? Colonial age, the fight of Catholicism VS Protestantism, etc.
 
You would need either a very depopulated Normandy, or a lot more Norse settlers. As for short term effects, it may provide a new base for Norse incursions into England. If so, England may become Norse itself. In that case, the Hundred Years' War never happens due to England not having the same ties it had to France in OTL.
 
I had thought that Normandy largely spoke some form of French the whole way through, with the Norse colonists being a ruling class.
 

Brunaburh

Banned
Due of boredom I was looking at a France map and my eyes spotted the region, we call today the Normandy. I thought "What if the Normans never got franconised and kept their original language for whatever reason?"

So..how could this change history?
Would the Normannic region be independent from France?
How could change that the English language? Would English be a "middle thing" between Western Germanic and Northern Germanic? Or would a Normannic invasion of England never happen?
And what about the more further future? Colonial age, the fight of Catholicism VS Protestantism, etc.

It's very difficult to get this. Norse didn't even last two generations in Normandy. If it had existed, it would be called something like Normanska.

Somehow, Orkneys and Shetlands, settled since Neolithic, did end up speaking Norse.

Good illustration of the difference. The Orkneys and Shetlands had tiny populations who seem to have been massacred and enslaved to a person, there is very little evidence of Pre-Norse settlement names on Shetland or Orkney, though some island names probably are. Strangely the Norse didn't seem to wipe out the priests, there are plenty of Papa- settlement names, indicating there was probably some kind of mutually beneficial relationship. Effectively the Norse wanted empty land to work

Normandy had a massive population, which was docile and settled, the Norse just took over.
 
Think Orkney and Shetland vary a little - Orkney maybe a little more Pict/or whatever the pre Viking population is. IIRC Shetland may have been not far off total population replacement. Orkney apparently kept some of the preceding population. The Outer Hebrides apparently have a fair bit of Viking but much more Pict/ Briton
 
I don't think a large, docile, population is any barrier to the people adopting the language of a newly arrived aristocratic class. If such was the case, than modern day English would look much closer to Anglo-Saxon than it does. History is full of small groups of elites moving into a well populated region and then having the lower classes adopt the language of the new ruling class. Many believe this is largely how the Indo-European groups came to dominate the territory that still speaks the daughter languages of proto-Indo-European today, and its the way in which the Celtic, Germanic and Slavic language families moved into territory throughout the Iron Age and into the Middle Ages.

Now, that being said, I don't believe that Normandy is a good candidate for being another Scandinavian speaking region; but that has nothing to do with its large, established, population, and everything to do with the Norse rulers themselves. Almost immediately, the Normans attempted to situate themselves and their Duchy within the framework of the Western Frankish (later: French) realm. They adopted Christianity, they attempted to politically assimilate, and generally acted like French lords. Why is this important? Because if their main goal is to work within the French system of the time, it behooves them to learn French, adopt French manners and customs, etc. In other words, there was a language with higher prestige already present and, in order to secure their positions, it made sense for the Normans to adopt and adapt to it. This doesn't mean that they lost all aspects of their Nordic culture, but it does seem that they largely made the practical decision to learn French at the very least.

If you want a Normandy that speaks a Nordic dialect today, I think you are going to want a larger Normandy and one which is independent of the French kingdom. If they have to fight to maintain their independence, they will struggle to maintain their language and customs at all costs. Also, this might lead to further Norse immigration to the region as they come to help the Norman rulers fight to expand their lands and stave off French assaults. In other words, this Normandy will be more culturally connected to Scandinavia than to the French, France (and its language/customs) will be viewed as an enemy, and a siege mentality will likely develop which will help reinforce the Norman language and culture. In this case, with a strong Norman speaking elite (and, likely, a fair amount of free farmers who have been given land for helping to fight the Duke's wars) you will see that large, docile, population beginning to adopt the language and culture of the nobility because its in their best interests to do so. (even in OTL, many Norse words found their way into the Franco-Norman language)

Now, of course, I'm unsure how long a more warlike Normandy can maintain itself against France. It might be able to expand further along the coast of the English channel, but the constant fighting is likely to make it poorer than it was in OTL. However, I suspect, if it could hold out for a century or century in a half, it might be enough to cement the region as primarily Norse in culture. However, eventually, Normandy is likely going to have to submit to a strong French King and, at that point, the French language and culture will seep in. This would likely leave *Normandy in a very similar situation to Brittany in OTL.

Perhaps the best way to go about this would be to have Rollo take Paris, rather than coming to terms with Charles the Simple, and force the king to cede Normandy (and possibly more land) to Rollo and his followers, with the later not entering into vassalage with the former.
 
"The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world" or at least decides the language the next generation will speak, the mother tongue isn't called that way for no reason after all. IOTL, starting with Rollo himself, most Norsemen married into local francophone noble families and the first generation born in Normandy was, while usually growing up bi-lingual, already more proficient in French than Norse, the second generation had only a rather basic knowledge of Norse and the third one next to none or none at all.

To avoid this development would have required the Norse to entirely replace the local elites instead of doing their utmost to integrate into them (mostly by way of intermarriage) the way they did it IOTL, but that would have made their grab for and hold onto power that much more difficult.
 
"The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world" or at least decides the language the next generation will speak, the mother tongue isn't called that way for no reason after all. IOTL, starting with Rollo himself, most Norsemen married into local francophone noble families and the first generation born in Normandy was, while usually growing up bi-lingual, already more proficient in French than Norse, the second generation had only a rather basic knowledge of Norse and the third one next to none or none at all.

To avoid this development would have required the Norse to entirely replace the local elites instead of doing their utmost to integrate into them (mostly by way of intermarriage) the way they did it IOTL, but that would have made their grab for and hold onto power that much more difficult.

The archeological record disagrees with this assertion; there have been numerous times where we know that a large scale language displacement has occurred throughout history and yet we do not find evidence of the wholesale war and destruction that would have to come along with a full displacement of local elites. Even if we look at England where there was not a total displacement of the original language, but heavy modification, you see a small group moving in, taking control of the government and society, and having a massive impact upon the language. (albeit, the Harrying of the North did see a fair amount of damage to the Anglo-Danish nobility of the North).

Now, I do agree with you, that the Normans, in order to maintain their language, would have to have a much more antagonistic relationship towards French nobility and the French Kingdom in general. However, I think stating "oh, the Mothers of the next generation speak French, so their children will inherently speak French as their preferred language" is putting it far too simply. There are social, economic and cultural factors in play; in OTL it was because the Normans did not see themselves in an antagonistic relationship to the French and, as a result, French culture was seen as something to assimilate into. If you change their perception, the results would be different.
 

Brunaburh

Banned
I don't think a large, docile, population is any barrier to the people adopting the language of a newly arrived aristocratic class. If such was the case, than modern day English would look much closer to Anglo-Saxon than it does. History is full of small groups of elites moving into a well populated region and then having the lower classes adopt the language of the new ruling class. Many believe this is largely how the Indo-European groups came to dominate the territory that still speaks the daughter languages of proto-Indo-European today, and its the way in which the Celtic, Germanic and Slavic language families moved into territory throughout the Iron Age and into the Middle Ages.

Now, that being said, I don't believe that Normandy is a good candidate for being another Scandinavian speaking region; but that has nothing to do with its large, established, population, and everything to do with the Norse rulers themselves. Almost immediately, the Normans attempted to situate themselves and their Duchy within the framework of the Western Frankish (later: French) realm. They adopted Christianity, they attempted to politically assimilate, and generally acted like French lords. Why is this important? Because if their main goal is to work within the French system of the time, it behooves them to learn French, adopt French manners and customs, etc. In other words, there was a language with higher prestige already present and, in order to secure their positions, it made sense for the Normans to adopt and adapt to it. This doesn't mean that they lost all aspects of their Nordic culture, but it does seem that they largely made the practical decision to learn French at the very least.

If you want a Normandy that speaks a Nordic dialect today, I think you are going to want a larger Normandy and one which is independent of the French kingdom. If they have to fight to maintain their independence, they will struggle to maintain their language and customs at all costs. Also, this might lead to further Norse immigration to the region as they come to help the Norman rulers fight to expand their lands and stave off French assaults. In other words, this Normandy will be more culturally connected to Scandinavia than to the French, France (and its language/customs) will be viewed as an enemy, and a siege mentality will likely develop which will help reinforce the Norman language and culture. In this case, with a strong Norman speaking elite (and, likely, a fair amount of free farmers who have been given land for helping to fight the Duke's wars) you will see that large, docile, population beginning to adopt the language and culture of the nobility because its in their best interests to do so. (even in OTL, many Norse words found their way into the Franco-Norman language)

Now, of course, I'm unsure how long a more warlike Normandy can maintain itself against France. It might be able to expand further along the coast of the English channel, but the constant fighting is likely to make it poorer than it was in OTL. However, I suspect, if it could hold out for a century or century in a half, it might be enough to cement the region as primarily Norse in culture. However, eventually, Normandy is likely going to have to submit to a strong French King and, at that point, the French language and culture will seep in. This would likely leave *Normandy in a very similar situation to Brittany in OTL.

Perhaps the best way to go about this would be to have Rollo take Paris, rather than coming to terms with Charles the Simple, and force the king to cede Normandy (and possibly more land) to Rollo and his followers, with the later not entering into vassalage with the former.

I would disagree with you about the relevance of a large docile settled population in preserving a language. Modern English is the descendent of Anglo-Saxon, but not the descendant of literary Anglo-Saxon, the descendant of Anglo-Saxon as spoken by the English peasantry in 1066. This was likely much closer to Middle English than literary AS is. Language change is actually associated with two factors, time and social collapse. English was under the direct influence of French for 350 years, and indirect influence for a further 400, that gives you a lot of room for language change, but given the persistence of communal life in England, it never happened. By comparison, the reason that England went from British speaking to Anglo-Saxon was social collapse and depopulation through war, disease and economic collapse. Large estates were broken up into smaller parcels, and the peasantry frequently divided between smaller landowners who spoke Anglo-Saxon. There was also a total lack of institutional continuity, it seems only a few British parishes survived the conquest in Anglo-Saxon territory.

I can't actually think of a time where elite takeover has led to change of language within a settled agricultural country without massive social upheaval and a lot of time, usually it occurs when a large country takes over a smaller one and retains control for a long period.

The rest of your post I agree 100%.
 
Not an expert on Normandy but learning and it leaves a question. Only a few centuries before the Brits were able to create Brittney and make it Breton and it stayed Breton for a milliania more or less with a much less powerful "international" culture. Why did they accomplish this and the Norse did not.
 

Brunaburh

Banned
Not an expert on Normandy but learning and it leaves a question. Only a few centuries before the Brits were able to create Brittney and make it Breton and it stayed Breton for a milliania more or less with a much less powerful "international" culture. Why did they accomplish this and the Norse did not.

What happened there is quite obscure, French historians don't really seem to be much arsed about how it happened. But it seems to have followed the AS pattern, migration by war bands taking over small territories which later coalesced into larger polities. There is also the possibility a Gaulish speaking population remained there, facilitating gradual language change, although pockets of Romance speakers remained in Western Brittany quite late.
 
IOTL, starting with Rollo himself, most Norsemen married into local francophone noble families and the first generation born in Normandy was, while usually growing up bi-lingual, already more proficient in French than Norse, the second generation had only a rather basic knowledge of Norse and the third one next to none or none at all.

Have Rollo and his followers bring women with them and marry them instead of French women. Bam, problem solved! See the immigrants living in Chinatown, Little Italia or any other such district in modern times - even after several generations, they marry each other and speak little of the language used in the country they moved to.
 
Have Rollo and his followers bring women with them and marry them instead of French women. Bam, problem solved! See the immigrants living in Chinatown, Little Italia or any other such district in modern times - even after several generations, they marry each other and speak little of the language used in the country they moved to.

I think there is a fair amount of out marriage (or whatever the term is) even in a China Town. Such places rely on a regular stream of reinforcements too, so far as I can tell.

I grew up in a deeply rural area in NZ, which coincidentally had a small, persistent Chinese population from the 1860s Gold Rush era. They had become farmers after the mining and managed to somehow, despite legal, political, financial and distance barriers import new people to marry singles from mainland China each generation (men and women came over). They all had Christianised and were fully bilingual.

However, there were a load of old families (not unlike Maori) who had Chinese ancestors. What seems to have happened is every generation people out married into the super majority Anglo-Celt population. So while the visible Chinese population seemed static, it was losing and replacing members. Even in more enlightened times.
 

Deleted member 97083

I would disagree with you about the relevance of a large docile settled population in preserving a language. Modern English is the descendent of Anglo-Saxon, but not the descendant of literary Anglo-Saxon, the descendant of Anglo-Saxon as spoken by the English peasantry in 1066. This was likely much closer to Middle English than literary AS is. Language change is actually associated with two factors, time and social collapse. English was under the direct influence of French for 350 years, and indirect influence for a further 400, that gives you a lot of room for language change, but given the persistence of communal life in England, it never happened. By comparison, the reason that England went from British speaking to Anglo-Saxon was social collapse and depopulation through war, disease and economic collapse. Large estates were broken up into smaller parcels, and the peasantry frequently divided between smaller landowners who spoke Anglo-Saxon. There was also a total lack of institutional continuity, it seems only a few British parishes survived the conquest in Anglo-Saxon territory.

I can't actually think of a time where elite takeover has led to change of language within a settled agricultural country without massive social upheaval and a lot of time, usually it occurs when a large country takes over a smaller one and retains control for a long period.

The rest of your post I agree 100%.
Yeah, every time a language has been fully assimilated by another one without massive depopulation, there was at least a small component of middle and lower class settlers (soldiers, farmers, traders) along with upper class nobility.

In fact, spreading a language doesn't require aristocracy at all. Aramaic spread throughout and assimilated all the languages of Mesopotamia, during the reign of formally Akkadian empires.

Only a few centuries before the Brits were able to create Brittney and make it Breton and it stayed Breton for a milliania more or less with a much less powerful "international" culture. Why did they accomplish this and the Norse did not.
They were farmers and fishermen instead of just lords, so they settled the countryside and assimilated the previous inhabitants.

The Vikings however were mainly interested in becoming an elite class and exacting tribute from existing populations.
 
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They were farmers and fishermen instead of just lords, so they settled the countryside and assimilated the previous inhabitants.

The Vikings however were mainly interested in becoming an elite class and exacting tribute from existing populations.

You see something similar in the spread of Germanic languages on the continent. They only managed to de-romanise areas which were largely settled by Germanic peasants. Areas that were conquered by a Germanic nobility but retained the latin-speaking majority continued to speak a romance language.
 
You see something similar in the spread of Germanic languages on the continent. They only managed to de-romanise areas which were largely settled by Germanic peasants. Areas that were conquered by a Germanic nobility but retained the latin-speaking majority continued to speak a romance language.
Also the Germanic/Romance divide is apparently also determined by geographic barriers (Vosges, Netherlands, Alps) even if not totally following them.
 
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