Norman Normandy

How is it possible that Normandy, or to an extent a seperate political entity comprising of Normany and the northern Coastof OTL's France and possibly Flanders be exsistent whose people identify themselves as Normans? Basicly a Norman Normandy seperate from France.
 
How is it possible that Normandy, or to an extent a seperate political entity comprising of Normany and the northern Coastof OTL's France and possibly Flanders be exsistent whose people identify themselves as Normans? Basicly a Norman Normandy seperate from France.

Keep France disunited a little longer which means at that time keep the King from dominating much of the Francophone lands around him.
 
Have Phillip II die young keeping 'Royal' France essetially Paris and its surroundings. The Angevin Empire survives for longer, but then have it split between two branches-English and French.
 
I undertand that with "norman identity" you mean a major and majoritary presence of the nordic heritage in Normandy's culture. Am I wrong?

If is that, we have to diferenciate two things. On one hand the disolution of the nordic heritage and on the other the outright absortion by the kingdom of France. Very probably the latter means the former happens in any case, but in OTL the disolution of the nordic heritage in Normandy started long before Philip Augustus entered in Rouen. Take into account that not all the population in Normandy was from nordic origin (it was one of the most populous territories in "France" by the way) and that nordic population was concentrated mainly near the coast, an more in the Low Normandy than in the High Normandy, were the capital was. That division has much to do with further internal conflicts inside the duchy. But going directly to your question, I think the last and more obvious oportunity to reverse the process of frenchisation* is the battle of Val-ès-Dunes. So my proposal: If the rebels defeat William you have an old-viking elite, many of them still pagans, acceding to the power and controling the ducal council. Of course, still it could not last enough time to have notable historic effects, specially if the capital is kept in Rouen, were the parisian and, in a more general way, cosmopolitan influx is unavoidable, plus the demographic reasons I mentioned. Well, I said Val-ès-dunes, but an earlier succesful plot during the minority of William the Bastard can also work. On the other hand, no Duke William the Conqueror means massive butterflies and a very different history, as you can suppose.

On the other hand we have to keep the duchy as an independent political entity. That's challenging and to be honest I find hard to imagine a way to achieve it (mainly due to my lack of knowledge). The butterflies which would follow William's defeat could be useful, perhaps, at least there is the possibility of keeping the dukes more directly attached to the Duchy of Normandy than in OTL. But also, I think it would mean a weaker duchy in the medium and long term, thus a more easy prey for the kings of France who, by the way, were the souzerains of the dukes. Perhaps if Guy of Brionnes (who would be the duke in the case of William's defeat) can find enough support to counter the king of France he could defy Paris and break the ties with the french kings, though damaging the norman economy. But I don't know how possible it could be.

*It's the second time I use the "word" today. What is the correct english word?
 
I undertand that with "norman identity" you mean a major and majoritary presence of the nordic heritage in Normandy's culture. Am I wrong?

If is that, we have to diferenciate two things. On one hand the disolution of the nordic heritage and on the other the outright absortion by the kingdom of France. Very probably the latter means the former happens in any case, but in OTL the disolution of the nordic heritage in Normandy started long before Philip Augustus entered in Rouen. Take into account that not all the population in Normandy was from nordic origin (it was one of the most populous territories in "France" by the way) and that nordic population was concentrated mainly near the coast, an more in the Low Normandy than in the High Normandy, were the capital was. That division has much to do with further internal conflicts inside the duchy. But going directly to your question, I think the last and more obvious oportunity to reverse the process of frenchisation* is the battle of Val-ès-Dunes. So my proposal: If the rebels defeat William you have an old-viking elite, many of them still pagans, acceding to the power and controling the ducal council. Of course, still it could not last enough time to have notable historic effects, specially if the capital is kept in Rouen, were the parisian and, in a more general way, cosmopolitan influx is unavoidable, plus the demographic reasons I mentioned. Well, I said Val-ès-dunes, but an earlier succesful plot during the minority of William the Bastard can also work. On the other hand, no Duke William the Conqueror means massive butterflies and a very different history, as you can suppose.

On the other hand we have to keep the duchy as an independent political entity. That's challenging and to be honest I find hard to imagine a way to achieve it (mainly due to my lack of knowledge). The butterflies which would follow William's defeat could be useful, perhaps, at least there is the possibility of keeping the dukes more directly attached to the Duchy of Normandy than in OTL. But also, I think it would mean a weaker duchy in the medium and long term, thus a more easy prey for the kings of France who, by the way, were the souzerains of the dukes. Perhaps if Guy of Brionnes (who would be the duke in the case of William's defeat) can find enough support to counter the king of France he could defy Paris and break the ties with the french kings, though damaging the norman economy. But I don't know how possible it could be.

*It's the second time I use the "word" today. What is the correct english word?

I'd say Gallicize, actually
 
Have Phillip II die young keeping 'Royal' France essentially Paris and its surroundings. The Angevin Empire survives for longer, but then have it split between two branches-English and French.
IIRC wasn't Philip II the French King who definitively did away with even the formality of electing the monarch? It might mean going back a couple generations further than Philip II, or a string of weak monarchs could allow it to be reintroduced, but a France that develops more along the lines of the Holy Roman Empire could allow for the regional identities to survive. The Peerage of France, of which the Duke of Normandy was a member, might make a good stand-in as French Prince-electors.
 
IIRC wasn't Philip II the French King who definitively did away with even the formality of electing the monarch? It might mean going back a couple generations further than Philip II, or a string of weak monarchs could allow it to be reintroduced, but a France that develops more along the lines of the Holy Roman Empire could allow for the regional identities to survive. The Peerage of France, of which the Duke of Normandy was a member, might make a good stand-in as French Prince-electors.

Wasn't the Dukes of Normandy, Burgundy and Champagne, and the Counts of Tolouse, Aquitane and Flanders who were the official electors (interestingly, if we can get an Anglo-Burgundian alliance at the right time, they control 5 of the 6 between them).
 
Wasn't the Dukes of Normandy, Burgundy and Champagne, and the Counts of Tolouse, Aquitane and Flanders who were the official electors (interestingly, if we can get an Anglo-Burgundian alliance at the right time, they control 5 of the 6 between them).
I didn't think the Count of Flanders, Count of Toulouse, or Bishop of Laon were added to the Peerage until shortly after his death or have I got my years mixed up?
 
I didn't think the Count of Flanders, Count of Toulouse, or Bishop of Laon were added to the Peerage until shortly after his death or have I got my years mixed up?

Not sure. The Count of Flanders was an old title certainly. Whether it was in the French peerage for that time is another matter.
 
Normany

How is it possible that Normandy, or to an extent a seperate political entity comprising of Normany and the northern Coastof OTL's France and possibly Flanders be exsistent whose people identify themselves as Normans? Basicly a Norman Normandy seperate from France.
Does Normany still conquer England? Do the Normans retain their Scandinavian language and culture? There would need to be extensive colonization of Normandy by Scandinavians, rather than have Normans as a ruling elite..
 

Valdemar II

Banned
What are needed are that Charles the Simple doesn't give give Rollo the Duchy of Normandy against him swearing vassalage, but that's it's taken as a Danelaw/Danelagen.

A good start could be that the Viking siege of Paris end with the fall of Paris rather than they receive a ransom to leave. This open more or less the entire Northen France up to Viking raids, and put the French king in a much worse position to negotiate, and gives the Norse some breathing room in Normandy. In OTL the Norse was more less forced to only raid rather than settle, because they risked a Frankish army would attack them in the winter. With Paris fell they have a good defensive base to overwinter in, while it would at the same time keep the Lower Seine watersheed somewhat safe from the Franks and open to Norse settlers. They can in time force a Danelagen treaty on the French where the Lower Seine or Normandy becomes a Danelaw rather than a French vassal. Continued raids and warfare may have depopulated the area enough at this point that the Danish settlers becomes dominant.
 
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