Non-Western Powers Colonizing India

[Agatho]

Hey everybody, I'm new here (and will be playing that card until I break 10 posts) but I've been lurking for a LONG time, and thought I'd finally post a question on this forum. In OTL India was eventually taken over completely by Britain, but what other powers could have had large colonies there? Specifically, what powers that aren't strictly "Western", or are even purely Eastern?

My AP European History book told me that British played the Great Game because they were afraid Russia would threaten India if they got a hold of Afghanistan, but could the Russians have really projected power through the Hindu Kush? What kind of a POD would be necessary to get them into India proper?

Could the Chinese have set up colonies in India had Zheng He and others like him been allowed to continue their expeditions?

If the Ottomans had a strong enough fleet in either the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf, could they have pushed out into the Indian Ocean and eventually colonized parts of India? A Turkish Kerala would be fascinating.

The Persians might establish contiguous control over northern India, so they wouldn't technically have colonies in the "overseas" sense of the word, but how much could they grab given the right circumstances?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject.

 

[Iori]

Well, technically one of them did, Oman controlled the port city of Gwadar (now in Pakistan) up until the mid-20th century.

China could take part of India, though it would be a result of expansion over land, not naval expeditions.

If you go back far enough with a PoD you could have situationw with anything from Russian India to Korean India.

 

[Agatho]

Well, technically one of them did, Oman controlled the port city of Gwadar (now in Pakistan) up until the mid-20th century.

For my purposes, British India (along with Bhutan and Nepal, but not Burma) is India. I didn't know that, could the Omanis have expanded their control any further? Are the Ottomans not even worth mentioning?

China could take part of India, though it would be a result of expansion over land, not naval expeditions.

Which parts would they be most likely to take? I could see Bengal as a tempting target. I just thought about Zheng He because I figured the Himalayas might be more daunting than a naval route, assuming this forward-thinking China had sufficient influence over the Straits of Malacca.

If you go back far enough with a PoD you could have situationw with anything from Russian India to Korean India.

So an Indian oblast or two would be too much to ask? I hadn't thought about the Koreans or Japanese, but it seemed like they both modernized too late. With the Russians I figured they were close enough to Western Europe that they could more easily adopt the reforms necessary.

And a no to Persia?

 

[Typo]

If you had a China with Ming era technology, the Chinese state controlling only the southern part of the country, and somehow is not endanger of being invaded by the semi-barbarians who rule the north, then I could see it in the realm of possibilities.

 

[kasumigenx]

China could get Assam and Bengal after getting Tibet..

 

[Iori]

I didn't know that, could the Omanis have expanded their control any further?

I'd lean towards not, atleast with Gwadar, they basically got that as a form of good will; the Sultan had been run out of Oman and was given Gwadar by the Khan of Kalat, however the Sultan later on retook Oman and Gwadar ended up being part of Oman after that.

Now if we have an earlier PoD with an Oman that is more trade centered they could get coastal strips and ports along the West Indian coast and in Sri Lanka to connect them to East and South-East Asia.

Are the Ottomans not even worth mentioning?

The Ottomans could get some small areas yes, though without a crushing defeat driving them from Europe or just not ever controlling European territory it's unlikely they'd focus on it to the degree to gain a large amount of control, since they were focused on the West, not the East.

Which parts would they be most likely to take? I could see Bengal as a tempting target. I just thought about Zheng He because I figured the Himalayas might be more daunting than a naval route, assuming this forward-thinking China had sufficient influence over the Straits of Malacca.

Nepal and Bhutan would likely be primary targets, after that Assam and some of the lightly to moderately populated area along near the border.
While China was massive and good at assimilating people India is just as big and has the diversity of an entire continent, so large swathes of India won't be incorporated into China, though their may well be one or two medium to large countries under Chinese influence and a bunch of small vassal states.

So an Indian oblast or two would be too much to ask? I hadn't thought about the Koreans or Japanese, but it seemed like they both modernized too late. With the Russians I figured they were close enough to Western Europe that they could more easily adopt the reforms necessary.

Russia would likely incorporate Kashmir and possibly part of Northern Punjab, but beyond that they'd likely just create vassals/puppet states along their border since to much more would cause problems (even today parts of Russia are'nt majority Russian).

As for the Koreans and Japanese, well in the case of Japan they simply closed themselves off and the Koreans did both that and were under Chinese influence, it was'nt really a case of modernization, since up until the late 18th/early 19th century East Asia was either slightly behind, equal to or more advanced than Europe itself.

And a no to Persia?

Well over time the various Persian Empires did control various parts of what is now Pakistan and some of what is now India, but they'd need incentive to try and conquer or incorporate parts of India beyond the Eastern borderlands.

 

[Nusantara]

I believe the Prince of Farghana, Babur, could take the prize. This guy is the god of underdogs and took over most of India while his homeland was in now-day Uzbekistan. He even made the first autobiography in Islamic literature.

 

[tormsen]

I was thinking "what would the Chinese want from India that they would deign to colonize it?" Though there was a fair deal of trade between India and China OTL, the prejudices of our history made me think of opium. There's something amusing about an outward looking China that decides instead of banning opium it will simply monopolize it. Then it starts selling opium to Britain's North American colonies in exchange for Appallachian Ginseng, which leads a puritanical Parliament to ban the drug...

*ahem* OK, to be serious for a moment. Now, we know that OTL the reason for Zheng He's voyages was to recieve tribute from the kings of the Indian Ocean rim as part of a accruing legitimacy for the Ming regime. They were sent, adventures were had, stuff was got, but then it kinda died out. After a while the Indian Ocean rulers stopped sending tribute but at that stage the Ming were established enough they didn't really care.

Now, when the Qing took over, they carried a nomads distrust and contempt for the sea, and razed the coastlines. But, say that during the early 17th century, instead of the Qing there was a new dynasty based on a peasant uprising, such as the Shun.

A successful Shun would definately have some legitimacy issues (particularly if there were some Ming loyalist piratical types wandering around). So it could be seen as important to get some legitimacy via foreign tribute, as with the early Ming. Without the cost-conscious Ming bureaucrats who kept such voyages from going forth any more, the Shun just have a whole "well, the Ming did it so so should we" attitude. They build some new treasure fleet and set sail.

A 17th century Zheng He analogue is going to be sailing into a very different neighbourhood than his 15th century forebear, however. His mission "get tribute and recognition from everyone" will probably also include the various European powers wandering around. Some, like the Dutch, would probably be quite accomodating. Others, like the Spanish, might be less so.

When the fleets reached India, they would surely notice the armed European colonies that had emerged along its coastline, and they may view them as both a threat and an annoyance. Local powers could request Chinese assistance to shift the annoying Europeans. This could lead to Shun-European wars over southern India and/or southeast Asia. And that would likely lead to some degree of Shun military presence in those regions if they were successful. Extracting regular tribute and maintaining a force presence, they wouldn't be that different from European-style colonies of the period.

How long a Shun colonial empire or network would last for, and what would happen to it, is another question.

 

[kasumigenx]

You just need tibet be more controled by China, if you want china to have control in tibet.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Could the Ottomans have done any damage in India? Such as colonising Baluchistan or the Gujarat area through expeditions in the Persian Gulf and further?

 

[tallwingedgoat]

Oman owned Gwadar until 1958.

 

[PoorBoy]

It's not quite colonization, but the Mongols did conquer most of Northern India IOTL. However, the Mongols ended up with the same fate as they did in China: They got assimilated into the local culture.

 

[Uriel]

I think there have been three main centres of civilisation throughout history:
-China
-India
-The Mediterrane & Europe (later split into Christian and Islamic spheres)

All got invaded by barbarians several times but the Barbarian empires either collapsed quickly, assimilated or shifted their focus to the civilized area.

Long time forgein rule over India is only possible by a nation from one of the other centres. So this leaves China, the West and the mediterrane/middle eastern Muslim world.

China had the power at times but it seemed to me that their society was averes to colonial adventures, their economic interest in India was low and they were cut of from India by the Himalaya.

So I think best bet for China would be either a gradual expansion through South East Asia or Chinese society changed through conversion to christianity or islam.

Muslims were very interested in India, especially the spice, textile and agriculture trade and as mentioned Oman had smaller colonies there.

If the major muslim states hadn't become stagnant between 1400 and 1600 and had had aquicker technological development I can see them taking exactly the same approach the Europeans did: First tradeposts then protectorates then actual conquest.
Surviving Egyptian or Bagadad Caliphats might be better suited than the ottoman Empire with its constant involvement in Europe.
States based on the Arab peninsula have a to small deomgraphic base for larger conquests in India

 

[Flocculencio]

Hey everybody, I'm new here (and will be playing that card until I break 10 posts) but I've been lurking for a LONG time, and thought I'd finally post a question on this forum. In OTL India was eventually taken over completely by Britain, but what other powers could have had large colonies there? Specifically, what powers that aren't strictly "Western", or are even purely Eastern?

The Muslim rulers of much of India did originate as foreign conquerors. The Mughals, for example, were Persianised Central Asians who then developed a syncretic Indo-Persian culture. It's all about what you call "foreign".

Is a Hyderabadi-born noble who follows Sunni Islam, speaks Persian/Urdu at home and at court and Telegu to the lower classes really that much more native than some Anglo-Indians of the later Raj who were born, brought up and lived in India except for a miserable ten years in Britain being educated?

 

[caloysky]

Try looking at the factions in Europa Universalis 3 and take your pick. If a Sultan from Borneo, Malacca, Aceh, Masakkar or Sulu managed to form a Malayan Empire they might conquer the India peninsula.

If you don't like that, you can try a local power within the peninsula, there should be a Sultanate in there. Maybe the Ming would be up for the job, since they have a lot of manpower to spare and conquer the southern Asian kingdoms.

 

[tormsen]

I think there have been three main centres of civilisation throughout history:
-China
-India
-The Mediterrane & Europe (later split into Christian and Islamic spheres)

I disagree on that last one to some extent. The Western centre was, for most of history, centred around the Middle East, then moved to the eastern Mediterranean region, then shifted a bit west with the glory of Rome, then shifted east again and largely stayed there before eventually moving to Europe relatively late in the game.

You tacitly aknowledge that later in your post with your suggestions, though.

 

[Uriel]

I disagree on that last one to some extent. The Western centre was, for most of history, centred around the Middle East, then moved to the eastern Mediterranean region, then shifted a bit west with the glory of Rome, then shifted east again and largely stayed there before eventually moving to Europe relatively late in the game.

You tacitly aknowledge that later in your post with your suggestions, though.

I was simplifing a little.

But you are too: Greece had settlements in the western mediterrane before rome and stayed a centre of civilisation throughout the roman times until the fall of Byzantium. And the christian and muslim worlds were roughly equally advanced for a very long time.

 

[Flocculencio]

Try looking at the factions in Europa Universalis 3 and take your pick. If a Sultan from Borneo, Malacca, Aceh, Masakkar or Sulu managed to form a Malayan Empire they might conquer the India peninsula.

If you don't like that, you can try a local power within the peninsula, there should be a Sultanate in there. Maybe the Ming would be up for the job, since they have a lot of manpower to spare and conquer the southern Asian kingdoms.

History is not a computer game.

 

[Horizon]

I get the feeling that Divide and Rule is given far more credit than it deserves. Its not like any foreign ruler could come into India, play one kingdom against another and conquer the country.

The British managed to do that, not because of their policy but because of their technological superiority. After all, even a divide Indian empire could field an army many times the size of most European force. And if you look at the major battles between Indian and British forces (with the exception of Plassey), you'll see that the natives lost not because they were fighting amongst each other, but because they were unable to match the firepower of the Brits in the battlefield.

Neither the Chinese nor the Turks had that level of technological superiority over the native Indian Kingdoms.

 

[tormsen]

I was simplifing a little.

But you are too: Greece had settlements in the western mediterrane before rome and stayed a centre of civilisation throughout the roman times until the fall of Byzantium. And the christian and muslim worlds were roughly equally advanced for a very long time.

Sure, but Greek colonies in the western Mediterranean were hardly the centre of civilization in that period, they were the frontier. And I would argue that for most of the Middle Ages, the centre of Western civilization was centred around the Muslim Middle East and the Byzantine Empire, so my point still stands.

But we're splitting hairs and pretty much agreeing anyway.

No one liked my Shun dynasty Zheng He analogue idea?