(Non T-191) Cliches to avoid in a CSA timeline?

That's usually ascribed to something something FOREIGN RECOGNITION!!!1111 something something profit. Having kicked around the facts of my own diplo-history TL for a couple of years, I certainly think the Union will be forced to the table by Britain and France getting involved post-1862/Antietam. I even think circumstances can be engineered to keep them there if and when things bog down. But are Britain and France willing to expend blood and treasure to secure Confederate maximalism, as usually seems assumed? Strikes me as highly unlikely. As does the prior assumption that they'll be on-board with Confederate maximalism enough to begin with to even threaten such. Yes, there're various reasons why they might, usually in in the name of the balance of power or humbling the U.S. While those're certainly going to be a policy consideration, they're but two of many that're likely to be weighed, a goodly number of which counsel accommodation or making common cause with the U.S. Doesn't mean that Britain and France won't threaten to use force, but that you probably should show your work to explain how it came to be.

They wouldn't have to intervene in any major way. Simple recognition coupled with the smashing of the Union blockade is going to implode the Union economy. There's going to be a run on the banks, British firms will quit loaning American banks credit and the Union banks will have to call in their loans which will be disastrous, inflation is going to skyrocket, massive desertions will hamper the war effort, there won't be any Union imports of powder or guns, specie will quickly be the main currency accepted. All the while the CSA gets massive access to foreign credit, imports of arms, access to New Orleans, a big morale boost. The list goes on and on, but it would be a legitimate disaster before the first soldier was even killed. I think people severely underestimate how badly the Union economy needs a friendly Britain to prosecute a war.

Getting intervention is tricky, but if it happens the war is over full stop. How the borders shake out is anyone's guess though. I'm tempted to say that there's a great many plebiscites in the border states and the Canadian border probably moves very little if at all though.
 
Getting intervention is tricky, but if it happens the war is over full stop.
Yes. Britain could tip the balance without getting boots on the ground, just with her navy alone. They had means to do so, but no will to do so. Although maybe if Seward became president...
 
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They wouldn't have to intervene in any major way. Simple recognition coupled with the smashing of the Union blockade is going to implode the Union economy.

Yes, they would have to intervene in a serious way. As the deployment of (presumably?) a not insubstantial portion of the Royal Navy to break the Union blockade and a resultant quasi-war at sea with the U.S. (at the very least, if not outright war as the Union threatened) seems to be intervening in "a serious way". But to tackle a more fundamental assumption, does recognition necessarily beget a breaking of the blockade? Britain, throughout the Nineteenth Century, maintained a consistent position with regard to belligerents' rights at war. And blockades were very much a legitimate part of a belligerent's policy toolbox, a position which Britain had been aggressively defended since the Napoleonic Wars. Recognition would not, ipso facto, require Britain to smash the blockade and to do so sans an alliance with the Confederacy would constitute abandoning a long-held hostility to neutrals' rights. (...though that honesty would be an interesting timeline, in which the South is saved by Britain's adoption of the American position on the issue which sparked the War of 1812.) And it's by no means impossible Britain would choose to ally with the Confederacy, though I think all recognition would yield is studious neutrality and an offer to mediate an end of the conflict. The point is that there're a half-dozen steps between "simple recognition" and "smashing the blockade" that need framed out and contextualized, which the reader should be shown but usually isn't.

There's going to be a run on the banks, British firms will quit loaning American banks credit and the Union banks will have to call in their loans which will be disastrous, inflation is going to skyrocket, massive desertions will hamper the war effort, there won't be any Union imports of powder or guns, specie will quickly be the main currency accepted.

This is a perfect illustration of "something something foreign recognition something something profit". Why are British banks, for instance, going to stop lending to (Yankee-)American firms? There's certainly no reason to stop cold turkey unless Britain's gotten itself into a shooting war with the United States. Which is by no means impossible in the event of recognizing the Confederacy. But it requires the U.S. to affirmatively initiate hostilities -- as Union diplomacy threatened to do in the event of foreign recognition -- or it requires Britain to purposefully ally with the Confederacy. If it's the former, there's going to be a ferocious and acrimonious debate as to whether to make good on the Union's threats or to "accede" to the foreign recognition and find some other way to make the recognizer pay or otherwise extract revenge. A debate that should be front-and-center, to show the reader how this major divergence from OTL came about. And if it's the latter, the same need to show the course of events that led to it needs to be front-and-center, as Palmerston was a vociferous advocate of British neutrality.

All the while the CSA gets massive access to foreign credit, imports of arms, access to New Orleans, a big morale boost. The list goes on and on, but it would be a legitimate disaster before the first soldier was even killed. I think people severely underestimate how badly the Union economy needs a friendly Britain to prosecute a war.

You are absolutely right re: foreign recognition being a blow to the Union cause and it usually being underestimated how important a non-antagonistic Britain is. You're also right about recognition being a shot in the arm for Confederate morale and that, in theory, it'd open up access to more foreign credit and arms imports. (I am unsure how much that would actually come to pass in fact, as the facts on the ground will dictate the willingness to lend to the Confederacy. And, as said above, foreign recognition does not ipso facto mean the destruction of the blockade.)

But I am going to focus on the bolded part of that statement. And ask a simple question: If recognition happens after April 1862 -- as it does in most timelines -- how does it yield access to New Orleans? As by then it's been occupied by Farragut. Even stipulating that Britain breaks the blockade, that doesn't restore New Orleans to the Confederacy. Does breaking the blockade somehow allow the Confederacy to raise an entirely new army for the purpose of retaking the city? Does the Union abandon it or seek a negotiated evacuation? Or does Britain eject the damn yankees by force? I feel a bit like a math teacher insisting that you show your work, but New Orleans logically returning the Confederacy as a result of foreign recognition reeks of being ASB without some bridging context.

Getting intervention is tricky, but if it happens the war is over full stop. How the borders shake out is anyone's guess though. I'm tempted to say that there's a great many plebiscites in the border states and the Canadian border probably moves very little if at all though.

I would say that depends upon how one defines "intervention" -- as I'd argue foreign recognition would constitute "intervention" -- but if the "intervention" is one or more European powers declaring war on the U.S., you're probably right. With regard to plebiscites, given what happened in Kansas, the Union is going to be emphatically against a plebiscite in any state that has a significant slave-holding population. And would probably insist that all individuals -- including slaves -- be allowed to vote, which would be a non-starter for the Confederacy when determining the fate of Tennessee or the Virginian Tidewater. ...and why would the Canadian border move at all, unless you were expecting things to go full Trent War with the inevitable invasion of Canada?
 
the Union is going to be emphatically against a plebiscite in any state that has a significant slave-holding population. And would probably insist that all individuals -- including slaves -- be allowed to vote
The Union may try to wreck the plebiscites (as long as it thinks it's going to lose, of course; it may push for them enthusiastically if it thinks it stands to benefit). However, it won't do so by insisting that slaves be allowed to vote. For a start, it's counter-productive in the state itself: it loses you not just the support of the slave-owners, but those who oppose the principle of slaves voting, who are probably more numerous than the slave population in the first place. Secondly, it also raises problems with the status of slaves in the North, and the restrictions on free blacks voting which exist in many Northern states. Thirdly, it's questionable whether the Federal government has the right to stipulate voting conditions in the states at all. As the Union probably wants to maintain the fiction that Federal authority remained supreme during the time the state was in rebellion, it would probably be better to avoid this particular constitutional can of worms altogether.

Post-1863, a precisely opposite course- to offer to cancel any further emancipation in rebellious states which vote to return to the fold- would seem more promising. But it's difficult to do legally, and you'd need a different administration even to attempt it.
 
They wouldn't have to intervene in any major way. Simple recognition coupled with the smashing of the Union blockade is going to implode the Union economy. There's going to be a run on the banks, British firms will quit loaning American banks credit and the Union banks will have to call in their loans which will be disastrous, inflation is going to skyrocket, massive desertions will hamper the war effort, there won't be any Union imports of powder or guns, specie will quickly be the main currency accepted. All the while the CSA gets massive access to foreign credit, imports of arms, access to New Orleans, a big morale boost. The list goes on and on, but it would be a legitimate disaster before the first soldier was even killed. I think people severely underestimate how badly the Union economy needs a friendly Britain to prosecute a war.

Getting intervention is tricky, but if it happens the war is over full stop. How the borders shake out is anyone's guess though. I'm tempted to say that there's a great many plebiscites in the border states and the Canadian border probably moves very little if at all though.

I personally would argue that British intervention would not end the war immediately. If Britain is intervening it depends on in what capacity. Is it a) in response to Trent or some other crisis or b) an offer of foreign mediation?

If a) then Britain will be explicitly intervening on her own terms with goals that do not match with those of the Confederacy, and so while Britain is indirectly helping the South, they won't have any "Treaty of Alliance" that keeps them from seeking a separate peace should they wish it. In that case while the Confederacy receives a huge shot in the arm via new guns, powder, access to foreign loans and trade which sees their position in 1862-63 improved astronomically, if Britain concludes a satisfactory peace with the US then the US turns its undivided attention on the South.

Granted, the strain of a two front war for X amount of time will have told, along with a loss of important trade goods and supplies, but it is not quite fair to underestimate the economic power the North can bring to bear in order to address these problems which would most likely allow the war to stretch into the winter of 1862-63 before something gave on any front.

If b) then they would have to back up that offer of mediation with full diplomatic/economic pressure in conjunction with other powers, or it would be an offer that will be rejected by Washington on principle. They would not however (in my estimation) intervene purely for diplomatic purposes unless the South looked to be pulling off a win.

As to post war borders, the Union wouldn't give up anything more than the original seceding states, and might (I stress might) allow a plebiscite in Kentucky if the Confederacy relinquished its claims to Maryland, West Virginia, and Missouri, and that would only happen if Confederate troops were sitting on the soil of Kentucky when negotiations started. The only other territory they might give up is Confederate Arizona, and the Indian Territory, but again, the Confederates need to be sitting on it for that to actually happen.
 
If you want to talk about the ban take it to the hall of infamy
Except that bans like that are part of the reasons we don't get any well thought out, detailed, non-comic-book-plot CSA TLs around here. Potential writers are worried that if they write a TL, where the CSA more or less muddles through as a Latin-America style banana republic, that may or may not de-jure mannumit it's slaves in the 20th century for appearances sake, etc etc they'll get accused of slavery-apologism and either decide to shelve the entire idea instead or do write it as a cartoony plot to be on the safe side.
We managed to have a "Guns of the Reich TL" with an extended discussion about it's events with what it means for the long list of people on the Nazis "undesirables" list without any bans featuring a scenario that's way more dystopic than a realistic CSA could manage, why can't we do this?
I'll probably get kicked for this, but: This ban and the sentiment behind it strikes me as an example of American narcissism, expect that instead of "we are the best" narcissism it's a "we are the evilest" narcissism, so mods feel compelled to be a lot stricter about slavery TLs than Nazism or Stalinism TLs.
 
There are a lot of CSA wins timelines. The guy was arguing that slavery was better than Jim Crow.

He was talking about well thought out time lines.

Having seen reactions where those who even suggest there are nuances or varied opinions in a Confederate society (among both black and white) are jumped by the easily offended who scream bloody murder when EVERY Confederate isn't some sort of cartoon villian jumping at the chance to have a lynching does a great deal to discourage intelligent conversations, much less timelines.

I think he has a point and I think this is relevant to this discussion (not one about a certain banning, which should now be taken elsewhere) because it makes CSA victory/civil war tl an area where sensible people stay away from.

No one wants to lynched by trolls.
 
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Except that bans like that are part of the reasons we don't get any well thought out, detailed, non-comic-book-plot CSA TLs around here. Potential writers are worried that if they write a TL, where the CSA more or less muddles through as a Latin-America style banana republic, that may or may not de-jure mannumit it's slaves in the 20th century for appearances sake, etc etc they'll get accused of slavery-apologism and either decide to shelve the entire idea instead or do write it as a cartoony plot to be on the safe side.

I do not think we've got a dearth of CSA TL's because people are afraid if they don't portray the CSA as evil enough they'll be accused of slavery apologism, heck we've had a few successful (ie long written ones) that have run into the 20th century. I'm pretty sure there's at least two going on right now.

The problem is trying to inject "nuance" into a system which isn't really open to nuance. The antebellum South was a brutal quasi-police state which ran to an almost absurd degree around supporting the slave system. If you want a nuanced view of slavery go read/watch 12 Years a Slave, even the objectively nice slaveholder comes off as not so great considering that when someone tried to lynch his valuable property, no one really thought to cut down said valuable property from a barely lethal noose for a few hours. Said nice slaveholder is forced to then sell his property at a loss because he is in fear for his life from showing mercy to an uppity investment. If you ever read Frederick Douglas's memoirs you see the "banality of evil" in the way it warped people to dehumanize their "property" so as to justify their investment and brutality to ensure the proper order of things stayed in place. I've read some excellent fiction portraying people who support the slave system, and they just look at it as a fact of life which doesn't require much thought or simply by thinking of their property as less than people. That's all the "nuance" one needs to portray.

So if someone wants to write a Confederate victory timeline there's nothing stopping them, even if it doesn't conform to the idea of what someone else thinks the Confederacy should be.
 
Except that bans like that are part of the reasons we don't get any well thought out, detailed, non-comic-book-plot CSA TLs around here. Potential writers are worried that if they write a TL, where the CSA more or less muddles through as a Latin-America style banana republic, that may or may not de-jure mannumit it's slaves in the 20th century for appearances sake, etc etc they'll get accused of slavery-apologism and either decide to shelve the entire idea instead or do write it as a cartoony plot to be on the safe side.
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Do you know writers who are so intimidated or are you making assumptions? Are you intimidated? Have you written something you are afraid to post?

I started one about a year ago, and I didn't stop working on it because I was worried about some internet lynch mob. I stopped because I wanted to write something else that I had a more thorough plot idea for.

So do you have examples of your assertion?

Mine is an unfinished rough cut first draft that was created as a back story for an online forum game I ran years ago but here it is.
(goal was to break up the US to level the playing field for the European players in the early 20th Century). I edited it a bit as a possible timeline and will likely return to it eventually.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/divided-america-an-alternate-19th-century.390129/

You are making blanket statements about how "everyone is affected". That does not seem to be the case.
 
He was talking about well thought out time lines.

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see post above regarding being lynched by trolls

Define 'well thought out"

It should be noted that 67 Tigers, TFSmith121, nor Saraph were banned for what they put in their timelines. They were banned for statements they made in other threads.
 
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Getting intervention is tricky, but if it happens the war is over full stop. How the borders shake out is anyone's guess though. I'm tempted to say that there's a great many plebiscites in the border states and the Canadian border probably moves very little if at all though.

Plebiscites are another cliche in Confederate victory timelines.

Or more specifically, plebiscites in Union states that never seceded, because in Confederate victory timelines, Union peace negotiators are always inept idiots. Rather than risk a replay of Bleeding Kansas, which would probably re-ignite the war, I'd expect both sides to avoid even the suggestion of plebiscites. In the unlikely event that Confederate peace commissioners insist on plebiscites for areas claimed by the Confederacy, the best they could hope for is the Union negotiators making the counter demand that all Confederate states who haven't already done so must also hold plebiscites on secession.
 
Avoid...

The Union becomes more conservative and more racist after the Confederacy secedes. It just lost all of its most conservative regions, why would it suddenly become even worse than OTL?
This is a big one. I had US become a fascist state after the ACW due to a variety of reasons, but with a lot backstory as to why. One of the more interesting things that gets overlooked is that the laws US Congress passed in the middle of the Civil War that were aimed at labor relations and etc. They did not use those terms as we would, but there was some amazing for its day progressive laws enacted due to the reactionary parts of the country simply not being represented at the time at Federal level.[/quote]

Anything that whitewashes, overlooks or downplays the bedrock upon which the Confederacy was established...slavery. It won't end easily. Slaves can be used in industry, as domestic help, military canon fodder, and sex slaves (google Fancy Girls).
This. Not discussing race and slavery in an ACW timeline that is set in the South is the equivalent of a football announcer ignoring a quarterback who murdered three hookers with a chainsaw somehow getting on the field at a Sunday Night game. "Well, I'm glad we can get past the... distractions surrounding the ole' gunslinger, and just focus on what really matters - football, Al!" "Right you are, Chris. We should concentrate on the game!"
 
Except that bans like that are part of the reasons we don't get any well thought out, detailed, non-comic-book-plot CSA TLs around here.

If any of the banned people had been working on "well thought out, detailed, non-comic-book-plot CSA TLs", you'd have a point, but the ones I saw had things like McClellan as a military genius and Confederate California.
 
see post above regarding being lynched by trolls

Define 'well thought out"

It should be noted that 67 Tigers, TFSmith121, nor Saraph were banned for what they put in their timelines. They were banned for statements they made in other threads.

Well thought out: Something you know when you see. Rudolf Will Reign Dear, Consequences of an Errant Shell are some good examples. One thing it avoids is large scale stereotypes that allow for interesting characters.

And yes, between my novel and short stories, and work, the tone here has discouraged me from taking on another project. I do have a great idea for a scene where Queen Victoria is introduced the new Confederate military attache, Patrick Cleburne as well as ones with RW Antebellum Black Entrepreneurs. And yes, I think one sentence even suggesting any sympathy for a white southerner could be misconstrued, perhaps deliberately.

As far as lynched by trolls, I do believe some of the behavior on this thread does qualify. If I sight examples will the PC police report me (a Clinton voter who idolizes Al Gore btw)?

As for 67 Tigers, or TFSmith121, I can't say if I ever read their posts so I cannot comment. I have already stated my opinion on Saph and will leave it there.
 
Plebiscites are another cliche in Confederate victory timelines.

Or more specifically, plebiscites in Union states that never seceded, because in Confederate victory timelines, Union peace negotiators are always inept idiots. Rather than risk a replay of Bleeding Kansas, which would probably re-ignite the war, I'd expect both sides to avoid even the suggestion of plebiscites. In the unlikely event that Confederate peace commissioners insist on plebiscites for areas claimed by the Confederacy, the best they could hope for is the Union negotiators making the counter demand that all Confederate states who haven't already done so must also hold plebiscites on secession.

That's one thing I grimace over in some reading. I mean I can see ways for the Confederacy to get more than the original seceding states, but they're all damn difficult.

If any of the banned people had been working on "well thought out, detailed, non-comic-book-plot CSA TLs", you'd have a point, but the ones I saw had things like McClellan as a military genius and Confederate California.

The idea he was some closet military genius gets funnier as time goes on. The special pleading about his Peninsula Campaign tends to ignore the glaring flaws he made, and loves to sidestep around his problems at Antietam. If the argument "if he'd just gotten everything he wanted" is the best that can be made for him, well that should tell you he clearly wasn't the general they think he was.

And yes, between my novel and short stories, and work, the tone here has discouraged me from taking on another project. I do have a great idea for a scene where Queen Victoria is introduced the new Confederate military attache, Patrick Cleburne as well as ones with RW Antebellum Black Entrepreneurs. And yes, I think one sentence even suggesting any sympathy for a white southerner could be misconstrued, perhaps deliberately.

As far as lynched by trolls, I do believe some of the behavior on this thread does qualify. If I sight examples will the PC police report me (a Clinton voter who idolizes Al Gore btw)?

No it would not. Look, no one is saying or has said that you can't speak nicely about people from the South, I have a soft spot for Jefferson Davis as a historical character and while people disagree with me about him, my talking about his role as President of the Confederate States has not gotten me kicked or banned. However, as was pointed out earlier in the thread, if you have to argue outliers (ie nice slaveholders, see 12 Years A Slave) you're kinda forgetting the important fact that, nice as they might be, they still held people in bondage for life. There's a reason a stock character in fiction for so long was the Confederate veteran who never owned slaves.
 
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