(Non T-191) Cliches to avoid in a CSA timeline?

[YourWaifuForLaifu]

I'm currently in the beginning stages of writing my own take of a Confederate victory in the ACW, and hope to avoid several of the common cliches and try to make something original and unique. For example, Britain/France do NOT intervene in the conflict, and the CSA instead manages to drag the war on until 1867, winning a war of attrition at great cost. If it would help, the terms of this scenario are that the peace that ends the Civil War is harsh and meant fully as revenge for basically bleeding the Union dry, and to speed up it's implosion. New Mexico and Arizona are lost, Missouri, Kentucky, and both Virginias are both firmly placed in the Union and the CSA renounces any claims to them.

While I'm aware of the worst offenders (literally anything Turtledove, Gettysburg/Antietam singlehandedly winning the war, the CSA having no internal issues at all, slavery ending overnight, etc.), I must confess that I am fairly new to the Alt History stage, and have pretty much no idea of any other cliches that have been done to death. So, I kinda have to ask; What are some lesser known cliches I should avoid using in a Confederate timeline?

Thank you for your help!

 

[Grimbald]

Avoid:
Slavery ends quickly
Lee is President after Davis
UK makes massive loans to control cotton prices

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

Somehow Surviving Into The 20th Century. /unpopular stance

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Somehow Surviving Into The 20th Century. /unpopular stance

Honestly, the Confederacy surviving past 1900 was one of the least implausible things to happen in the series...

However, to the authors question:

• Avoid abolishing slavery too early
• Avoid the Confederacy winning a war in 1880
• Avoid a WWI parallel so blatant
• Avoid Making Lee, Wilson, Semmes, presidents
• Avoid Civil War scenarios where the South captures Washington or anything beyond perhaps Kentucky and Indian territory
• Take into account the economic problems the Confederacy would face

 

[YourWaifuForLaifu]

Avoid:
Slavery ends quickly
Lee is President after Davis
UK makes massive loans to control cotton prices

I had no intention to do any of these (especially not slavery ending a few years after a very bloody war to maintain it), so no worries there

Somehow Surviving Into The 20th Century. /unpopular stance

Well, the current system certainly isn't, that's for sure!

Honestly, the Confederacy surviving past 1900 was one of the least implausible things to happen in the series...

However, to the authors question:

• Avoid abolishing slavery too early
• Avoid the Confederacy winning a war in 1880
• Avoid a WWI parallel so blatant
• Avoid Making Lee, Wilson, Semmes, presidents
• Avoid Civil War scenarios where the South captures Washington or anything beyond perhaps Kentucky and Indian territory
• Take into account the economic problems the Confederacy would face

Slavery (including it's adaptation to an industrial era) is a key part of the timeline, so no worries there.

I have honestly no clue how I will model Europe yet, however German unification will likely proceed at least mostly as in OTL. Even then, the CSA will likely end up focusing on internal matters and it's own backyard (although I can promise there will not be a Golden Circle, when your economy is imploding, you aren't focusing on imperialistic adventures)

As I've seen Lee twice, I can assure everyone he acts much as he does OTL in a Union Virginia. No worries there.

This Civil War is a defensive one. Lee's two big invasions of the US don't occur, and instead the Confederates seek to merely keep the Union troops out. They are still woefully just as outmatched, as in OTL, but they manage to make Union victories effectively worthless at the severe cost of life. In the end, the South only manages to win because it manages to tire the Union of fighting, and even then, it ends up losing big chunks of it's territory anyways.

The economic collapse of the CSA and it's struggle to attempt to stabilize are also super important. Particularly of note is the emerging textile mill owners who will eventually start to displace the rich white planter class...

 

[CountDVB]

I had no intention to do any of these (especially not slavery ending a few years after a very bloody war to maintain it), so no worries there



Well, the current system certainly isn't, that's for sure!



Slavery (including it's adaptation to an industrial era) is a key part of the timeline, so no worries there.

I have honestly no clue how I will model Europe yet, however German unification will likely proceed at least mostly as in OTL. Even then, the CSA will likely end up focusing on internal matters and it's own backyard (although I can promise there will not be a Golden Circle, when your economy is imploding, you aren't focusing on imperialistic adventures)

As I've seen Lee twice, I can assure everyone he acts much as he does OTL in a Union Virginia. No worries there.

This Civil War is a defensive one. Lee's two big invasions of the US don't occur, and instead the Confederates seek to merely keep the Union troops out. They are still woefully just as outmatched, as in OTL, but they manage to make Union victories effectively worthless at the severe cost of life. In the end, the South only manages to win because it manages to tire the Union of fighting, and even then, it ends up losing big chunks of it's territory anyways.

The economic collapse of the CSA and it's struggle to attempt to stabilize are also super important. Particularly of note is the emerging textile mill owners who will eventually start to displace the rich white planter class...

Not to mention the cotton boll weevil going to ravage the place, potential conflicts with Mexico (especially since Mexico might have a chance of beating them) and the rise of Marxist ideaology.

 

[YourWaifuForLaifu]

Not to mention the cotton boll weevil going to ravage the place, potential conflicts with Mexico (especially since Mexico might have a chance of beating them) and the rise of Marxist ideaology.

The Cotton Weevil is going to be a huge pain in the buttocks for the Confederates. As for Mexico, I don't think they'd particularly like a French puppet on their border either, but they certainly aren't getting involved after being beaten within an inch of their life

And socialism in both the Union and the South will be a, suffice to say, pretty important thing once it starts to establish itself... and while there won't be a Marx-Leninist one party dictatorship, I wouldn't entirely rule out one school of socialist thought that might end up shaking things up a tiny bit...

 

[CountDVB]

The Cotton Weevil is going to be a huge pain in the buttocks for the Confederates. As for Mexico, I don't think they'd particularly like a French puppet on their border either, but they certainly aren't getting involved after being beaten within an inch of their life

And socialism in both the Union and the South will be a, suffice to say, pretty important thing once it starts to establish itself... and while there won't be a Marx-Leninist one party dictatorship, I wouldn't entirely rule out one school of socialist thought that might end up shaking things up a tiny bit...

Well, Mexico against the CSA would be much more even fight than the Union was those years ago. Furthermore, a weakened CSA would be easier pickings. Add it Mexico banned slavery in its inception with potential invitations and they could probably reclaim Texas at least.

Socialism on both sides will be important, but there is something interesting to consider. The Americas had Christian Socialism as a thing, which could take root in the South, especially amongst the disenfranchised Afro-Americans. A strong uprising with American supplying arms could see the collapse of the CSA leading to an Afro-American centric socialist democracy with a potentially good relationship with the Union.

 

[dcharleos]

Well, Mexico against the CSA would be much more even fight than the Union was those years ago. Furthermore, a weakened CSA would be easier pickings. Add it Mexico banned slavery in its inception with potential invitations and they could probably reclaim Texas at least.

Socialism on both sides will be important, but there is something interesting to consider. The Americas had Christian Socialism as a thing, which could take root in the South, especially amongst the disenfranchised Afro-Americans. A strong uprising with American supplying arms could see the collapse of the CSA leading to an Afro-American centric socialist democracy with a potentially good relationship with the Union.

IN 1860, the Southern states had about 9500 miles of RR. Mexico had about 250. The disparity in literacy rates is similar. In no way is it ever going to be an even fight between Mexico and the CS. Ever. You can try all you want to to make the CS the 19th century equivalent of a third world country, but its not an outcome strongly supported by the available evidence.

Re: Christian Socialism

YES. And honestly, a multiracial Christian Socialism is an equal and opposite radical reaction to the reactionary revolution that birthed the CS.

 

[House of Hohenzollern]

There was a thread a few months back about Alternate History Cliches, and one that stuck out to me was that in some some Confederate Victoey scenarios, after the being defeated, the Union goes and conquers part of Canada for no discernible reason. (People sometimes forget it was still part of the British Empire.)

Also, from what I've read, and I could be wrong, the Confederacy's federal government had really limited powers and was much weaker than it's Union counterpart.

 

[CountDVB]

IN 1860, the Southern states had about 9500 miles of RR. Mexico had about 250. The disparity in literacy rates is similar. In no way is it ever going to be an even fight between Mexico and the CS. Ever. You can try all you want to to make the CS the 19th century equivalent of a third world country, but its not an outcome strongly supported by the available evidence.

Re: Christian Socialism

YES. And honestly, a multiracial Christian Socialism is an equal and opposite radical reaction to the reactionary revolution that birthed the CS.

Yeah, but in 1865, the CSA just pretty much endured a brutal war so that could change things, especially over time. Also, perhaps the Union may lend financial support or even provide arms. Given what I know about Mexico, they might take the opportunity if they could.

Yeah, an Afro-American dominate Christian Socialist uprising seems like it could happen

 

[YourWaifuForLaifu]

Well, Mexico against the CSA would be much more even fight than the Union was those years ago. Furthermore, a weakened CSA would be easier pickings. Add it Mexico banned slavery in its inception with potential invitations and they could probably reclaim Texas at least.

Socialism on both sides will be important, but there is something interesting to consider. The Americas had Christian Socialism as a thing, which could take root in the South, especially amongst the disenfranchised Afro-Americans. A strong uprising with American supplying arms could see the collapse of the CSA leading to an Afro-American centric socialist democracy with a potentially good relationship with the Union.

IN 1860, the Southern states had about 9500 miles of RR. Mexico had about 250. The disparity in literacy rates is similar. In no way is it ever going to be an even fight between Mexico and the CS. Ever. You can try all you want to to make the CS the 19th century equivalent of a third world country, but its not an outcome strongly supported by the available evidence.

Re: Christian Socialism

YES. And honestly, a multiracial Christian Socialism is an equal and opposite radical reaction to the reactionary revolution that birthed the CS.

Yeah, but in 1865, the CSA just pretty much endured a brutal war so that could change things, especially over time. Also, perhaps the Union may lend financial support or even provide arms. Given what I know about Mexico, they might take the opportunity if they could.

Yeah, an Afro-American dominate Christian Socialist uprising seems like it could happen

I have to admit, the idea of a multiracial Christian socialist uprising didn't occur to me, specifically the Christian bit. I actually rather like that idea, definitely including it!

Thank you all for that, I would have honestly never thought of that!

 

[Fiver]

Also, from what I've read, and I could be wrong, the Confederacy's federal government had really limited powers and was much weaker than it's Union counterpart.

The Confederate government was at least as centralized as the Union and by 1863 the Confederacy employed more bureaucrats than the Union.

 

[dcharleos]

Yeah, but in 1865, the CSA just pretty much endured a brutal war so that could change things, especially over time. Also, perhaps the Union may lend financial support or even provide arms. Given what I know about Mexico, they might take the opportunity if they could.

Respectfully, there's no "yeah but" that really works here. The level of development the CS was at isn't comparable to any of the Latin American nations. Not Brazil. Not Mexico. None of them.

They did not endure a brutal war so they could return to an era of technological primitivism.

 

[Obergruppenführer Smith]

How far back is the POD? We could start a different background for the ACW, which might help avoid some of the tied ideas.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Yeah, but in 1865, the CSA just pretty much endured a brutal war so that could change things, especially over time.

If the war lasts until 1865, the CSA will lose it, especially if it takes place within their own territory and destroys their infrastructure. The Confederate States need a short war, preferably with British and French support. A short war that doesn't let the US to use their superior infrastructure, industrial production and manpower. A short war that is fought on Union ground or on the border to avoid the destruction of the Confederate economy.

 

[James Ricker]

Don't have the social and political landscape remain the same as the pre war South , things were beginning to change that's one of the reasons the South seceded in the first place.
When the Boll Weevil shows up and it will, the cotton industry will collapse, causing business failures and mass unemployment. With failures of cotton plantations a lot of slaves will flood the market causing the price of slaves to plumet. Free slaves would compete with whites for scarce jobs.
Radical political movements on all sides could come out of that mess.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

Avoid:
Slavery ends quickly
Lee is President after Davis
UK makes massive loans to control cotton prices

What's wrong with Lee becoming President after Davis? I mean, he's going to be extremely popular after a Southern victory.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

What's wrong with Lee becoming President after Davis?

I think it's not Lee himself, but the fact that he always becomes president (at least in most TLs) and that he then often abolishes slavery for whatever reasons.

 

[Historyman 14]

I got one. The CSA going to war with Spain, and winning Cuba like OTL USA did.

Now can the South win aginst Spain over Cuba? I think so, Spain is still going downhill, but it won't be a cakewalk.

Heck, maybe the South loses, but Spain is still force to give up Cuba which becomes a US Ally?