Non-Sardinian Unification

Could a different Italian kingdom unify Italy, like the Kingdom of Two Sicilies? What would be the effects of a different unifier?
 
You really should specify the time period for this, there are plenty of discussions in this forum about alternative Italian unifications, most of them dealing with the medieval era. If you are referring to the moder age, like with the Sardinian unification:

1) The most important factor is not military or economic power, but international support (or at least apathy). Most Italian states were not particularly strog or rich by themselves by this point in time, the only thing potecting them were the Great Power's concern over the balance of power in the continent. This by itself meant that as long as the kingdom of the Two Sicilies was nothing but a vassal crown to another power, nobody was going to allow any attempts at unification from their part.

2) Also to take into account is the fact that the feudal system prevented anyone from just conquering another state and annexing it to their own. For instance if Tuscany conquers say, Urbino, that doesnt make them Dukes of Urbino by any stretch; the only acceptable means of expansion were inheritace or cession of land by another lord, which could be forced by military means, but was limited in its reach: A victorious lord could demand the defeated one part of their territory in exchange for peace, but unless they could raise a semi-legitimate claim to the entire state (be it a County, Duchy or Kingdom), very few people are going to let them get away with it. Feudalism was largely based around legitimacy, and a big part of the reason the Italian unification of OTL was possible is because the Napoleonic Wars had deligitimized its institutions.
 

yourworstnightmare

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Gian Galeazzo Visconti had the ambition to restore the lands of the Lombard Crown. The question is could he have been more succesful? He was winning his war agains Florence when he fell to fever.
 
Gian Galeazzo Visconti had the ambition to restore the lands of the Lombard Crown. The question is could he have been more succesful? He was winning his war agains Florence when he fell to fever.
Well, France isn't going to disturb him because of the 100YW and the HRE is a mess, so external interference isn't likely, but he would have a lot of problems with opposition in Italy proper, even if he subdue Florence, there is still Savoy, Venice and the Pope.
 

yourworstnightmare

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Well, France isn't going to disturb him because of the 100YW and the HRE is a mess, so external interference isn't likely, but he would have a lot of problems with opposition in Italy proper, even if he subdue Florence, there is still Savoy, Venice and the Pope.
Well his wife was Savoyard, so his back against Savoy would be relatively safe, however Venice and the Pope are hurdles to overcome.
 
Well, France isn't going to disturb him because of the 100YW and the HRE is a mess, so external interference isn't likely, but he would have a lot of problems with opposition in Italy proper, even if he subdue Florence, there is still Savoy, Venice and the Pope.
The popes, you should say: since the Great Western Schism is still in full blown, there is a lot of space for him to play between the two (later three) contenders.
Venice at this time has a very limited presence on the mainland, and the interests of the Serenissima are not necessarily in contrast with the aspirations of Gian Galeazzo.
Savoy is not a major player at this stage.
The kingdom of Naples is not in good shape, and Aragon is moving toward a succession crisis and associated civil war in a few years.
If GG is granted another 15 years or so, and plays his cards well, he would be able to consolidate his possessions and groom his sons for the succession.
 
The popes, you should say: since the Great Western Schism is still in full blown, there is a lot of space for him to play between the two (later three) contenders.
Venice at this time has a very limited presence on the mainland, and the interests of the Serenissima are not necessarily in contrast with the aspirations of Gian Galeazzo.
Savoy is not a major player at this stage.
The kingdom of Naples is not in good shape, and Aragon is moving toward a succession crisis and associated civil war in a few years.
If GG is granted another 15 years or so, and plays his cards well, he would be able to consolidate his possessions and groom his sons for the succession.
Actually, Gian Galleazzo was supposed to marry Maria of Sicily, if he was able to marry her, he would have more edge to the others..
 
Actually, Gian Galleazzo was supposed to marry Maria of Sicily, if he was able to marry her, he would have more edge to the others..
It is a bit more complicated: Artale Alagona, Justiciar of the kingdom of Sicily and chief among the regents for the underage Queen Maria, offered the hand of Maria to Gian Galeazzo (who apparently showed interest and organised a Pisan fleet to bring the young queen to Northern Italy. The plan went down the drain very quickly, due to the strong opposition of the Aragonese crown. An Aragonese fleet blockaded the mouth of the Arno, and at the same time Maria was kidnapped by the count of Augusta only to be "rescued" by an Aragonese fleet and taken to Sardinia. Here things ended, and IIRC GG never made any further attempt to marry Maria.

It was quite an harebrained scheme, although there were connections between the house of Aragon-Sicily and the Visconti (Federico IV, Maria's father, was engaged to Antonia, daughter of Barnabo Visconti who was the lord of Milan and eastern Lombardy as well as the uncle of GG. Federico's untimely death in 1372 voided this scheme). GG was just 28 at the time of the Artale's proposal (1379), his father had died in 1378 and was still trying to assert his independence from the tutelage ofhis uncle Barnabo (who may have as well been behind this scheme: if GG had married Maria, he would have found very difficult to take care of his interests in North Italy while being away to Sicily; if he had staid in the north, his wife would have almost certainly lost her crown. Either way, Barnabo would have found much easier to assert the dominance of his branch of the family in the ancestral Visconti lands).

IMHO GG was lucky since the chance of marrying Maria never materialised.
 
Good ideas, I was hoping for more variety in time periods though, any for 1800sish area?

You can have a bunch of possible unifications before 1000 AD:
  • a surviving Gothic kingdom, which can be achieved in multiple ways; if the Gothic kingdom survives the 6th century crisis, it is quite likely they will manage both the Longobards in the east (which are under Gothic influence anyway) and the Franks in the west. Provence, Noricum, Dalmatia would be kept by the kingdom. It is quite possible that they may even get their hands over the Vandal kingdom in North Africa
  • a surviving Longobard kingdom: either Pepin is otherwise engaged or the pope's emissaries don't get to him in time. If this happens, a strong alliance with Bavaria (or even a union by marriage of the kingdoms) may be in the cards.
  • a post-Carolingian kingdom of Italy (or Italy plus Provence/Arles): again there are a number of possible PODs during the 9th and 10th centuries
All of these possibilities wouldmost likely result in a pope firmly under the thumb of the king of Italy, and no temporal power for the church: it would create major changes all over Europe, with the entrenchment of "national" churches and church doctrine being shaped by councils (the bishop of Rome might or might not be a primus inter pares).

After 1000, the number of possible unification PODs decreases somewhat, but there are possibilities between the 11th and the 15th centuries, and later on in the 19th:
  • the House of Canossa might have a serious chance in the 11th century (Boniface surviving the attempted assassination in 1053 or his son Frederick surviving his illness/poisoning a couple of years later or his daughter Mathilda being luckier in her marriage (the case of a luckier Mathilda was explored in a TL on this site: Tuscan Sons)
  • the house of Hauteville might be a candidate, assuming that the Houenstaufen don't inherit the kingdom of Sicily (12th/13th century)
  • in the 14th century there is a chance for Ezzelino da Romano, but it's a bit of an outlier
  • again in the 14th/15th century Visconti's path might be a different one: I've already identified Gian Galeazzo as a very serious contender for an early Italian unification, but there might be an alternative. The Visconti possessions were divided between Gian Galeazzo and his uncle Bernabo'. IOTL Gian Galeazzo's coup was successful, his uncle was put in jail and later poisoned: it might go the other way, and Bernabo' becoming the sole ruler. The advantages would be that Bernabo's sired quite a brood of sons and daughters (a succession crisis would be very unlikely), the (very thin) French claim over Milan would be voided and Bernabo's good relations with the dukes of Bavaria would play a role. The main problem is that Bernabo' might very likely split his domains among his surviving sons at his death, following the traditional policy of the Visconti.
  • the alliance between the 5 stronger powers in Italy (Milan, Venice, Florence, Naples and the Papal States) might survive the death of Lorenzo de' Medici and with time evolve into a confederation. Not very easy (15th century)
  • Murat or Eugene de Beauharnais (or both) keeping his throne after the fall of Napoleon. I believe that all these possibilities are very unlikely (and both keeping the throne would be ASB territory), but a case might be made for Murat being successful. Yanez de Gomera wrote an unfinished TL (An Ausonian Tale) which sees Murat keeping his throne and the kingdom of Naples prospering.
  • Louis Philippe's France intervenes in Italy in 1831-32 to support liberal insurrections: this results in the creation of a new state in Emilia-Romagna which prospers and might end up unifying Italy. Again a bit of an outlier, but it was explored in a TL a few years ago (The Talleyrand's Gambit).
  • Pius IX keeps faith to his liberal beginnings, and an Italian Federation is created in 1848-49: this is a more serious possibility (although I'm not sure I would like the Italy which would come out of this), and IOTL there were neo-Guelphs in Italy who supported this idea
  • my favourite POD is Milan not submitting to the king of Sardinia after the successful insurrection in March 1848, and going forward as a republic, in alliance with the St. Mark's republic created in Venice by Manin at the same time. This would be the nucleus for republican confederation, which would be joined by other successful insurgents (Parma, Modena, Tuscany, the Papal States). The problem is that I never found a reasonable way of making this work. Pity.
Eugene unites Italy
Murat united Italy
Both of these were more the expression of liberal wishful thinking than real possibilities.
 
Well his wife was Savoyard, so his back against Savoy would be relatively safe, however Venice and the Pope are hurdles to overcome.
Gian Galeazzo Visconti, given another 15 years to live (entirely possible) is going to create an England - a regional power that nonetheless will dominate the area in the following centuries by virtue of being the strongest country around. Maybe he won't see a united Italy - probably he won't, as sources point out he was going to sit down and reorganize his conquests after the fall of Florence - but his sons, or grandchildren, or grand-grandchildren, probably will.
 
Gian Galeazzo Visconti, given another 15 years to live (entirely possible) is going to create an England - a regional power that nonetheless will dominate the area in the following centuries by virtue of being the strongest country around. Maybe he won't see a united Italy - probably he won't, as sources point out he was going to sit down and reorganize his conquests after the fall of Florence - but his sons, or grandchildren, or grand-grandchildren, probably will.
If GG is given another 15 years or so, his task will be to weld together all the Visconti's possessions, and organize on a centralised basis the finances and the taxation (which he had already started to do in the late 1490s). GG was very smart and focused, as well as a visionary: given the favorable political situation of the late 14th and early 15th century, it is quite likely he would succeed in his endeavors. IMHO he would have tried to expand in a limited way his domains (Genoa and Mantua come to mind) but the focus would be on the organization of his possessions. The real question is if he will be successful in grooming his sons for the succession, and even more so if he will refrain from splitting his domains between them (as it happened upon his death IOTL).
 
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