Non-Portuguese Brasil

Do you mean "with a post-1492 POD"? If not, in my Chaos TL, England has it (although Sweden temporarily controls the north).
 
Maurice of Nassau Siegen I think was not sacked so much as he was offered a better post in his native country of Cleves. Siegen had some great reforms and during his post in Dutch Brazil alot of the Portuguese population remained culturally autonomous and the only major change was they were shipping sugar to wealthy Dutch ports as opposed to Portugal, which was stagnating under the Iberian Union. I think, had the Dutch conquered a few more Brazillian forts and maybe held onto Salvidor- and kept Siegen around for a bit longer, they could've aquired a peace-deal that grafted them a portion of Brazil. That's alot going on though- not that it wasn't possible just, well. A broad idea.

Had the French launched assaults on some of the Northern forts, Portugal- which was pretty wound up at home and unable to offer any major assistance, might've given it. Then again, so was France- so there's a reason why they weren't exactly storming the Amazon in OTL. There's a good chance they might not have- as any mistreatment of the local population would lead to disaster like OTL.

What's interesting is whether Dutch Brazil would remain Dutch even if they managed to somehow wrestle it out of Portugal's hands. The British eyed almost all Dutch possessions, and in 20 years time from about the point where Dutch Brazil began to go downhill (1640s) they would take New Amsterdam. Would they sack Recife and take it too?
 

Keenir

Banned
IOTL, when the Portuguese arrived, the Tupi tribes were starting to form a kind of confederation in the coast of Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo and Espírito Santo, but nothing very stable. Maybe they could reach some kind of organization like the Iroquois, but it's not very likely. And even then it would be only the Southeast coast of Brazil, you still have all the rest of the territory to deal with.

maybe if they were united by the Jesuits? (nominally under Papal rule...hey lookit, a Vatican colony, of sorts)
 
2. No, but the name makes me hungry now for Mexican food

For your edification:

The Pope brokered a deal which split the lands outside Europe into Spanish and Portuguese colonial zones. The map below shows the finalised spheres of influence demarcated in the Americas by the Treaty of Tordesillas and in the Pacific by the Treaty of Zaragoza.

800px-Spain_and_Portugal.png


The treaty generally held until France, England and the Netherlands became powerful enough to ignore it.
 
Maurice of Nassau Siegen I think was not sacked so much as he was offered a better post in his native country of Cleves. Siegen had some great reforms and during his post in Dutch Brazil alot of the Portuguese population remained culturally autonomous and the only major change was they were shipping sugar to wealthy Dutch ports as opposed to Portugal, which was stagnating under the Iberian Union. I think, had the Dutch conquered a few more Brazillian forts and maybe held onto Salvidor- and kept Siegen around for a bit longer, they could've aquired a peace-deal that grafted them a portion of Brazil. That's alot going on though- not that it wasn't possible just, well. A broad idea.

But you still have the problem that the Dutch were basically urban traders isolated in a few cities surrounded by Portuguese-Brazilian farmers. If Maurice stays you could have a longer Dutch Brazil, but probably not a lasting one. Once the Portuguese farmers decide they are tired of the Dutch trying to receive their taxes they would revolt against the "invaders" or the "hereticals". IOTL they managed to defeat the Dutch without foreign help, and probably could do it ITTL too (and in Bahia it would be even worse, because it was more populated than Pernambuco). In order to achieve a lasting Dutch Brazil you would need loyal inhabitants who would see the Dutch in Recife (or Salvador) as their equals and not as “the foreigners with who we need to make business” and you only could achieve that with settlers (not necessarily all of them Dutch, but all of them Protestant would help).

What's interesting is whether Dutch Brazil would remain Dutch even if they managed to somehow wrestle it out of Portugal's hands. The British eyed almost all Dutch possessions, and in 20 years time from about the point where Dutch Brazil began to go downhill (1640s) they would take New Amsterdam. Would they sack Recife and take it too?

That is a very likely possibility. It could hurt the relations with the Portuguese if they ever become independent from Spain, but in a scenario where Portugal remains in the Iberian Union it could happen (a slightly longer Dutch Brazil conquered by Britain). But you still have the population problem, and I’m not sure how the British would deal with this large Catholic population – although they could have more settlers to send there.

maybe if they were united by the Jesuits? (nominally under Papal rule...hey lookit, a Vatican colony, of sorts)

I don’t know about being a Papal vassal (that would be nice though :D), but a kind of “Tupi Paraguay” in that region could very well be formed if there were less greedy Portuguese settlers and more Jesuits. Although it would be more likely if the region is colonized by the Spanish rather than the Portuguese.
 
A Norhten part of Brazil remaining Dutch was very plausible. It Did not materialise because company board room members were not satisfied with the gains they won. Nassau Siegen, really enjoyed Brasil, he realy acted as a king, and he ahd the skills to keep it together.
Suppose it remained utch there would come an influx of setlers, not Dutch but protestant. LIke in New York (new Amsterdam) most setlrs were also not from Holland.
By the way New Amsterdam stayed New York, because after the 2nd Anglo Dutch war the Dutch, which they won, they trade for Suriname and lucrative trade deals, at that time much more valuable than the small city of New Amsterdam with its bunch of farmers and fur traders. A colony the size of Northen Brasil ruled by a popular vice roy as Nassau Siegen would not be traded easaly away as an at time insignificant trade post as New York/New Amsterdam
 
A Norhten part of Brazil remaining Dutch was very plausible. It Did not materialise because company board room members were not satisfied with the gains they won. Nassau Siegen, really enjoyed Brasil, he realy acted as a king, and he ahd the skills to keep it together.
Suppose it remained utch there would come an influx of setlers, not Dutch but protestant. LIke in New York (new Amsterdam) most setlrs were also not from Holland.
By the way New Amsterdam stayed New York, because after the 2nd Anglo Dutch war the Dutch, which they won, they trade for Suriname and lucrative trade deals, at that time much more valuable than the small city of New Amsterdam with its bunch of farmers and fur traders. A colony the size of Northen Brasil ruled by a popular vice roy as Nassau Siegen would not be traded easaly away as an at time insignificant trade post as New York/New Amsterdam

Well, as you said, he loved to live in Brazil, and the Brazilians liked him (after all, we are talking about a man that made a cow to fly during a party :D) . Even the Catholic priests liked him. The problem is that the Company didn't like him. You would need a different pattern of the Dutch colonization to allow such a man as Maurice stays. Maybe if could be possible to turn Pernambuco into an independent principality under Maurice and his possible heir inherits his personal skills that would please the Portuguese farmers. Or he replaces the Catholic population by Protestants, but that doesn't fit with his conciliatory personality.
 
Gonzaga,

You're right. The only change that the Norh of Brasil could become ''Dutch'' is if the State General of the Republic refused to lenghten the charter to the WIC. That West Indian Company was the owner of all colonies and trading post around the Atlantic. The company was a copy of the VOC, the east indian company in all but profit and good managment.
The charter of 21 years was given an other 20 years despite big protest of Amsterdam merchants who, in this case were not that power full. With the WIC still in busines, even if it was bancrupt, a Dutch Brasil would never materialise. or other colonies.
 
Just an idea how a border could be drawn in 1650 Between ''Dutch'' brasil and Portugese Brasil.
The names are OT names of the forts and towns in the 1640

brazil7.jpg
 
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