Non-People/Country Things in AH that are wanked

There seem to be awfully few Persian or Afghan centred TL's and scenario's here...

These areas have been Shiite for centuries, and that's a peculiarity: They expect that the Twelfth Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, will arrive somewhen and fix things then. Thus, they tend to quietism (or on the contrary, bloody revolutions like in 1979). People who quietly expect their messiah don't make exciting TLs.

How about a free, democratic society that views all other races a vermin? Or the opposite, a fascist state where gender and race of a person is considered unimportant?

Brazilian Integralism proposed a multi-racial, Catholic "state of the estates".
 
Medieval Steam engines? Wha?

I think part of the reason you don't see more soft technology is that people bind it boring. (Well, I'd find a history of the Bank of Rome interesting, but...).

I second that wha. Medieval steam engines? When, where, who? Provide links, please.
 
I second that wha. Medieval steam engines? When, where, who? Provide links, please.

Missed that one the first time 'round. No link, unfortunately. There is one in the collection of the archdiocese of Cologne that was put on display for the Ornamenta Ecclesiae exhibition and is shown in the catalogue. The basic layout is a metal boiler with a narrow, focused spout. It is filled with water and, as it begins boiling, provides a draft to fan the flames.

A toy, of course, but it shows a pretty acute understanding of the properties of steam. Here's a nice elaborate one from the Vienna art history museum, 12th century

http://www.khm.at/system2.html?/static/page2390.html
 
Overused: the Nazis. Seriously, the more I learn about them, the more I realize they were their own worst enemy. In fact, I was thinking of doing a scenario in which Nazi Germany pretty much fails at the outset.

Please do! I'd like to see that, it'd make a change from the usual Big Nazi Empire TLs.
 
Another one- Croats as villains. From the ever-present Ustaša in Axis wins AH's to the mercenaries in 1632, Croats usually make incidental villains, and how! They're like always portrayed as human wolves.

The Croats tended to pick the wrong sides in European conflicts, and the winners write history. They didn't even take doomed principled stances, just doomed opportunistic ones.
 
These areas have been Shiite for centuries, and that's a peculiarity: They expect that the Twelfth Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, will arrive somewhen and fix things then. Thus, they tend to quietism (or on the contrary, bloody revolutions like in 1979). People who quietly expect their messiah don't make exciting TLs.

Well, Persia only had a Shi'ite majority since the rise of the Safavids.

Before that, most Persians were Sunni's, and even those that indeed were Shi'ites didn't always adhere the Twelver creed (there were quite a lot of Zaidi and Ismaili Shi'ites in Persia during the Medieval Ages).

And even after the rise of the Safavids, Persia still has lots of interesting AH potential.

As for the Afghans; the Pashtun and most other Afghans are and have traditionally been Sunni Muslims, and the lionshare of the Afghan Shi'ites are (with exception of the Hazara's) Ismaili's.

And then there is the eastern Afghan region of Nuristan, which wasn't Islamized until 1899.

..
In other words, I'll have to disagree with you here Max.
I'd say that there's plenty of interesting AH potential in Persia and Afghanistan...
 
Overused-Anything America-centric. And airships. Although, admittedly, I'm a bit of an airship-wank myself. The Two Georges was great that way. :D
 
Timmy811 said:
A nuclear thrust engine would do that job fine. Unfortunately people are rationally afraid of living next to a potential Chernobyl
Fixed your typo. :D
That hasn't been a rational fear since before 1980. Chernobyl was a crappy design, and even so the accident was caused entirely by human error (they turned off all the safeties and tried to run it as close to meltdown as possible... is it any wonder that it got out of hand?)
People just have an irrational fear of nuclear power. Especially as regards spacecraft- sure, I can see how you might get edgy about a nuclear launch booster, but a nuclear thermal rocket operating in deep space isn't going to be a danger to anyone (except perhaps the crew, if they act like friggin' idiots and do everything in their power to get themselves killed).

But wait! This post is in fact on-topic:
Underused- no Chernobyl, or else people don't get so worked up about it, and popular nuclear optimism continues to the present day.
Also underused- ancient Indian PODs. Things having to do with Mohenjodaro or ancient Ceylon, for example.
 
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Missed that one the first time 'round. No link, unfortunately. There is one in the collection of the archdiocese of Cologne that was put on display for the Ornamenta Ecclesiae exhibition and is shown in the catalogue. The basic layout is a metal boiler with a narrow, focused spout. It is filled with water and, as it begins boiling, provides a draft to fan the flames.

A toy, of course, but it shows a pretty acute understanding of the properties of steam. Here's a nice elaborate one from the Vienna art history museum, 12th century

http://www.khm.at/system2.html?/static/page2390.html

I saw one on the History Channel the other day. :cool:

Basically a kettle on wheels.
 
I was going to start a thread about alternate alliances resulting from Southern victory other than the classic Turtledovian "CSA goes with the Allies, U.S. teams up with Germany", which predates Turtledove, I believe, when I realized that it's all very implausible, anyways.

The CSA making any sort of impact upon world politics, getting involved with European wars, expanding into the Caribbean or Latin America, that sort of thing is quite impossible. The U.S. would steamroll them. In any case, the notion of a CSA with active foreign relations is quite wanked.

However, for the record I think there should be more U.S. allies with Russia scenarios, just because of the irony, and U.S. allies with Spain (in response to the Confederacy attacking Cuba and Puerto Rico), also because of the irony (the U.S. defending a colonial power because of upholding the Monroe Doctrine!)
 
However, for the record I think there should be more U.S. allies with Russia scenarios,

The U.S. and Russia were strong allies from the War of 1812 era (when John Adams himself was Ambassador to Russia) until the Russian Revolution, mostly due to both country's strategic conflict with Britain.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
I had another thought about the so-called "Baghdad Battery".

For starters, we know very little about their provenance. I've heard conflicting stories - one author (I'm attaching a PDF) states unequivocally that they were discovered during the course of regular archaeological investigations, but I've read elsewhere that they were discovered by workers laying tracks for a railroad. In either case, the alleged discovery took place in 1936, and the "batteries" were discovered in the context of magic bowls, which happen to be my specialty.

Therein lies the problem. I know of absolutely no magic bowls that have been discovered in a Parthian context, and of those that have been discovered in a secure archaeological context, all belong to the late Sasanian/early Islamic period. Furthermore, Dr. St. John Simpson, who is the curator of the Pre-Islamic Near Eastern collections at the British Museum, states that the jars themselves are of a typical late Sasanian form, again indicating that the "batteries" belong either to the late Sasanian empire or early Islamic times.

With regard to the purpose of the jars, similar artifacts have been discovered in other Sasanian-era contexts stuffed with documents. The hypothesis that the jar could have been used to preserve documents is given a boost when you consider that no wires have been discovered associated with these jars, and that the bitumen that thoroughly sealed the mouth of the jar would prevent anything from getting in or out of the jar (including an electric current). Considering that several of them would have to be joined in series in order to produce even a mild electric current, this seems odd to say the least.
 

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The U.S. and Russia were strong allies from the War of 1812 era (when John Adams himself was Ambassador to Russia) until the Russian Revolution, mostly due to both country's strategic conflict with Britain.

John Quincy Adams. He used to take long walks with the czar. And when he ran for President, the Democrats said he pimped his wife out to him. :D
 
However, for the record I think there should be more U.S. allies with Russia scenarios, just because of the irony, and U.S. allies with Spain (in response to the Confederacy attacking Cuba and Puerto Rico), also because of the irony (the U.S. defending a colonial power because of upholding the Monroe Doctrine!)
Considering that the USA only attacked Cuba and Puerto Rico because of the Maine and yellow journalism, why would the Confederacy wish to?

Moreover considering that it was more decentralised, an anti-Spanish policy may be difficult to sustain. And if the central government did go to war over who is to say that the states would support it? If I remember correctly during the Civil War Georgia was unco-operative about supplying non-Georgian forces. If this is correct and repeated, Spain may find itself taking on only part of the Confederacy and defeating it.
 
Anything that involves the Confederacy/British Commonwealth/ or the Nazis. I think my pet peeve is probably the first point - I've pretty much stopped reading anything that has that as its primary POD.

Things I'd like to see more of:

1) Stuff with Southern Africa - POD sometime between 1895-1939 - I think it possible that slightly nicer South Africa/Rhodesias could have existed without too much in the way of ASB (something that predates the National Party or Rhodesian Front for example). Say extending by force the Cape franchise rules to the other 3 provinces in the immediate aftermath of the 2nd Boer War

2) The Commonwealth never falls - No Restoration. As a sort of republican I would like to see a solid British Republic TL - starting with the Commonwealth

3) A Russian raid on the South Pacific pre WW1. While growing up in NZ I used to occasionally visit our historic coastal defences - which were intially built during a Russian Scare at the turn of the 20th century. So far as I know we were never in any real trouble, but a more tension ridden S Pacific would be interesting to see
 
Missed that one the first time 'round. No link, unfortunately. There is one in the collection of the archdiocese of Cologne that was put on display for the Ornamenta Ecclesiae exhibition and is shown in the catalogue. The basic layout is a metal boiler with a narrow, focused spout. It is filled with water and, as it begins boiling, provides a draft to fan the flames.

A toy, of course, but it shows a pretty acute understanding of the properties of steam. Here's a nice elaborate one from the Vienna art history museum, 12th century

http://www.khm.at/system2.html?/static/page2390.html

And the Byzantines just loved their useless steam engines. The doors of Hagia Sophia were opened by a steam device 'as if by magic'. The Komnenoi Emperors had steam-driven animals in their throne room(the lion actually roared!).

The revolutionary thing about the Watts engine was it was practical for industrial use. It put out enough power that it could be used to run the pumps in coal mines, so it suddenly had an actual profitable use.
 
I had another thought about the so-called "Baghdad Battery".

For starters, we know very little about their provenance. I've heard conflicting stories - one author (I'm attaching a PDF) states unequivocally that they were discovered during the course of regular archaeological investigations, but I've read elsewhere that they were discovered by workers laying tracks for a railroad. In either case, the alleged discovery took place in 1936, and the "batteries" were discovered in the context of magic bowls, which happen to be my specialty.

Therein lies the problem. I know of absolutely no magic bowls that have been discovered in a Parthian context, and of those that have been discovered in a secure archaeological context, all belong to the late Sasanian/early Islamic period. Furthermore, Dr. St. John Simpson, who is the curator of the Pre-Islamic Near Eastern collections at the British Museum, states that the jars themselves are of a typical late Sasanian form, again indicating that the "batteries" belong either to the late Sasanian empire or early Islamic times.

With regard to the purpose of the jars, similar artifacts have been discovered in other Sasanian-era contexts stuffed with documents. The hypothesis that the jar could have been used to preserve documents is given a boost when you consider that no wires have been discovered associated with these jars, and that the bitumen that thoroughly sealed the mouth of the jar would prevent anything from getting in or out of the jar (including an electric current). Considering that several of them would have to be joined in series in order to produce even a mild electric current, this seems odd to say the least.

Why would you stuff a document in a jar full of acidic liquid? Wouldn't that have the oppose of the intended effect? Aren't the jars way too small for this anyway? The article you attached seems pretty convincing - why don't you like this theory?
 
The Commonwealth never falls - No Restoration. As a sort of republican I would like to see a solid British Republic TL - starting with the Commonwealth

In Neville Shute's "In the Wet" it does not, at least not until after the nineteen seventies. No republic though, but a monarch that continues in strength. Also (and none of this will spoil the plot).

1) A war in south east Asia that involves large numbers of Australians including the their air force (a super Vietnam?)

2) Top speed of aircraft still less than Mach one

3) No independence for India or Rhodesia, UDI or otherwise).
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Why would you stuff a document in a jar full of acidic liquid? Wouldn't that have the oppose of the intended effect? Aren't the jars way too small for this anyway? The article you attached seems pretty convincing - why don't you like this theory?
No acidic liquid was found - Keyser merely states that the presence of asphalt indicates that liquid was involved, and that most liquids known to the Parthians were acidic, ergo whatever liquid that was contained within the jar must have been acidic.

The jar is certainly not too small for most scrolls - if you take a look at the DSS, many of them are actually 10 cm wide or narrower.

Basically my main objection is the following:

Since the "Baghdad Battery" was discovered (by whomever) in the context of magic bowls (which are a late Sasanian/early Islamic phenomenon), is composed of a Sasanian vessel (per Simpson), and is best grouped with other artifacts that were discovered in Sasanian contexts, it makes absolutely no sense to consider it "Parthian," yet all descriptions of the device consistently date it to Parthian times, often even before the Christian era. I suppose people figure that pushing it back to the time of Christ will make it all the more impressive - trust me, nobody cares about Late Antiquity, as far as most scholars are concerned it's a black hole.

Similar vessels were discovered containing scrolls, therefore we're obliged to consider whether the "Baghdad Battery" might not have been intended for electroshock therapy or electroplating jewelry.

I'm not saying that Keyser's theory is absolute bunk; I actually agree that it could have been used to do what he says it did. I'm just not sure that it did. This may simply be an example of a happy coincidence, a scroll jar that just happens to be a battery if used under the right conditions (perhaps the first example of Iraqi "dual use technology"?).

The one fly in the ointment, so to speak, in my objection is the presence of asphalt at the bottom of the copper tube. Then again, it could have melted down from the lid, who knows. He himself agrees that it would have been useless except for very particular circumstances (the iron rod slips down and touches the bottom of the copper tube). I don't agree with him that the presence of asphalt necessarily means that liquids were involved; or rather, they could have been involved, in the sense that asphalt can keep liquids out as well as trap them within.

One final thing. If it was discovered in the context of magic bowls (and boy, would I love to get a look at those particular bowls - they're probably on the streets of Dubai or Jerusalem right now, though), then the device probably wasn't built by "Parthians" or even "Sasanians" but rather by Jews or Mandaeans.
 
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