Non-Islamic West Africa

How could Islam have never reached West Africa? As far as I know Islam reached West Africa through trade, so if the West Africans didn't trade with the Caliphate could Islam have never reached West Africa?
 
I don't know about "never," it'd be pretty hard to keep Islam out of the region entirely. But OTL Islam never penetrated south of a certain line along the Sahel (further south in equatorial and eastern Africa), so it's possible the line could be shifted more north? Maybe have parts of Senegal and Mali remain non-Muslim. I'd say the only way to realistically do this is have these regions adopt Christianity earlier and make them very strong Christians by the time Islam arrives.
 
Don't have the berbers convert.

Islam spread with the trans saharan trade with Morocco, Algeria and Libya. Those countries were christian prior to the muslim invasion. If the arabs are stopped in egypt by the byzantines or driven back by the berbers in tunisia, then the traders crossing the sahara don't bring islam with them.
 

Deleted member 97083

Or introduce Christianity to West Africa (requires a slightly earlier introduction of the camel).
Camels were used across the Mediterranean in Roman days, though I don't know if they were used to cross the Sahara.
 
Or introduce Christianity to West Africa (requires a slightly earlier introduction of the camel).

That wouldn't 100% guarantee no converts though.

Eritrea was christian, Somalia was christian, Sudan was christian, North Africa was christian. Ethiopia managed to hold on isolated and surrounded by muslim powers but it was very much the exception, not the rule.
 
I mean, my thought is if you want an early POD, just have the Byzantines put up enough of a fight that the Caliphate focuses on Persia, then India, so by the time anyone decides to look back at the west, the Christians have built up enough in Egypt and North Africa to be able to take out anyone trying to get through.

For a later POD, you would have to break the chain of assimilation to the point that a rebellion could occur. I am no expert at this, but from what I have read, what would happen is that the kids would become Islamic, and over time they taught Islam to their kids and so forth. If you can keep Christian communities more hermit-like and establish almost a cult of protection around their kids, eventually someone is gonna raise an army big enough to kick out whoever is in the region.
 

ben0628

Banned
That wouldn't 100% guarantee no converts though.

Eritrea was christian, Somalia was christian, Sudan was christian, North Africa was christian. Ethiopia managed to hold on isolated and surrounded by muslim powers but it was very much the exception, not the rule.

True, but when you have a giant ass desert between you and Islamic nations, its really hard to get conquered. That being said, I guess it could still slowly convert to Islam through trade
 
If there's an independent Romano-Berber state in N. Africa that can hold out against the Umayyads, this would be the likely result.

However, that would also bring some huge butterflies along with it.
 
True, but when you have a giant ass desert between you and Islamic nations, its really hard to get conquered. That being said, I guess it could still slowly convert to Islam through trade

I mean neither Sudan or or Somalia were islamised by conquest. They were islamised by being surrounded by powerful islamic states and isolated from christendom (and to a certain extent christanity became associated with ethiopia and thus islam became a useful way to differenciate yourself from the local bully).

I think if Morocca and Sudan go Muslim than Mali is going to go Muslim whether it's christian or pagan simply due to external pressures. Islam is the religion of the scholars, the traders, the great rulers, anyone of prestige in the region and fellow christians are far away and almost mythical.

Doesn't mean it can't hold out, see Ethiopia which did, but I think being christian prior to the conquest of north africa is not a sure foot way of meaning they stay christian.

The Mutapa Kingdom in Zimbabwe went catholic for about four days until the catholic misisonaries overplayed their hands and tried to get muslims banished from his court at which point the king changed his mind because trade with islam was hugely important for him and zimbabwe is a lot further from the islamic trade routs than the sahel.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
maybe climate change ?

a larger and drier Sahara, with fewer oasis, might make traans-saharan gold trade collapsed entirely.

alternatively, a wetter Sahara or more dry tolerant tse tse flies could devastate horse in Sahel.
 

SRBO

Banned
Christians in the Middle East for some reason converted extremely easily to Islam. If they actually organized to fill the power vacuum of the destroyed Byzantines and Persians Islam might as well even be reversed

Or Middle Easterners are just opportunistic as fuck and had no principles.
 
IMO the simple answer is - Don't let N.Africa become Muslim. As soon as that happens, you have cultural pressure. Removing that solves the problem easily. It may just become Christian instead.

If you want a native faith, (and I may show some ignorance here), but create an organised native faith. Perhaps import the concept of Caesaropapism for a Malian/Ghanan faith. That should be robust enough that if there is a state power that is of that faith, then the faith should remain.

But personally, I would always go with the Exarchate of Africa surviving (but I'm a disgusting Byzantophile). But you could go with victory for the Romans at Yarmouk, or a change to make the Copts of Egypt rise in defense of their homes against the forces arrayed against them.

Or go even further back, and make it so that Mohammed doesn't exist.

Or EVEN FURTHER - Have Augustus successfully conquer Arabia - once it is brought into the Roman Sphere, the religious divide is likely to never persist.
 
Christians in the Middle East for some reason converted extremely easily to Islam. If they actually organized to fill the power vacuum of the destroyed Byzantines and Persians Islam might as well even be reversed

Or Middle Easterners are just opportunistic as fuck and had no principles.

I'm not sure that's true. Egypt for example remained majority Christian until the eleventh century, if not later.
 
Christians in the Middle East for some reason converted extremely easily to Islam. If they actually organized to fill the power vacuum of the destroyed Byzantines and Persians Islam might as well even be reversed

Or Middle Easterners are just opportunistic as fuck and had no principles.

It actually took centuries for many parts of the Middle East to become majority Muslim, and considering how even today, nearly 1,400 years afterwards, there still exists notable Christian communities in the region, I'd say this is false.
 
Christians in the Middle East for some reason converted extremely easily to Islam. If they actually organized to fill the power vacuum of the destroyed Byzantines and Persians Islam might as well even be reversed

Or Middle Easterners are just opportunistic as fuck and had no principles.

It depends on the areas you are speaking of. From what I know, Antioch, Alexandria, Mosul-Ninewah, Lebanun, Armenia, Nubia, etc where all majority Christian in the 1000s. The other areas where made Muslim primarily by Arab migrations and the assimilation of the rural populations into Arab society which meant Sunni Islam.

The remants of many pre Islamic beliefs in Iraq mixed with certain Arab views on Muhammad and created the various Shi'i communities in Iraq, Iran and Syria which then spread as the Ghulat, Rafidhi, etc... With the Zayydiyya as the traditional Shi'i before certain Iraqi beliefs mixed in. My general theory on the matter is that much of the pre Islamic gnostic and secrecy cult mysticism was absorbed into Islam via Shi'ism. Thus in a way these communities never disappeared, nor where they converted.
 
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