Non-Castro Cuba

Recent chat room thread leads me to ask.

If Castro had been defeated, and communism never took hold of Cuba, what would Cuba look like today?

I have always wondered how much of the gambling/tourist industry that went to Las Vegas and Bermuda, ect. would Cuba have gotten.

It seems likely that it would have been quite a lot of money pouring in over that time period.

Indeed without Vegas being in America, I supect TTL would have a slower acceptance of Casino gambling in the US. Especially if Cuba was smart enough to lobby against it.
 
This will get political before tomorrow.
As much as I dislike Castro I would have to say that, unless some other revolution takes place in the island, Cuba would be worse than today. The early decades of the revolution the Cuban government, thanks to the Soviet subsidies they've got by sending their youth to kill and die in Africa, saw an investment in health care, education, labor laws and income redistribution that I find extremely unlikely it would have happened with more Batista like governments. And even if another non-comunist government in ATL has the political will to pursue such programs, they would have lacked the Soviet money to do it.
Again, that doesn't mean I like Castro. But I rather dislike him for what he did instead of what he didn't really do
 
Better move...

The better move in terms of American involvement in Cuba would have been buying off Castro after the revolution.

If the Americans had "invested" heavily in Castro - regardless of his politics - I think Castro would have been less interested in his "grand revolution".

Everyone loves a casino.
 

NomadicSky

Banned
It'd be a horrible place to live.

The mob would control most of the country, the US backed puppet the rest.

It would have some areas that were beautiful, and the rest would be a third world hell hole. Probably in the same cities like Rio.
 
Recent chat room thread leads me to ask.

If Castro had been defeated, and communism never took hold of Cuba, what would Cuba look like today?

I have always wondered how much of the gambling/tourist industry that went to Las Vegas and Bermuda, ect. would Cuba have gotten.

It seems likely that it would have been quite a lot of money pouring in over that time period.

Indeed without Vegas being in America, I supect TTL would have a slower acceptance of Casino gambling in the US. Especially if Cuba was smart enough to lobby against it.

If you want a look at a Cuba without Castro feel free to visit Haiti.
 
I agree

still you get my point.

Look at Cuba today,it has the best health system in the Carribean (Including the USA )

Excellent education system,when I was there me and my dad had a discussion with a random about the politics of Scotland.

Im not going to say its a socialist utopia but there are 3 large race groups Hispanic,African-Cuban and Native Cuban all living together in total cooperation.

Now im bias cause im Pro Castro but that man was the best thing that ever happened to the place.

(BTW,if you can,visit Havana the people are real and youll get a taste of communism/socialism done right.
 
I've always thought had the liberal hawks in the CIA prevailed, Castro (who didn't mention the word Communist for his fist few years in power) could have easily been co-opted as an American ally.

American foriegn policy throughout the Cold War was severly hampered by a very US-centric, conservative view towards nationalist/liberation movements in the third-world, namely seeing any effort to strengthen their country (inherently being nationalisation of crucial Western dominated industries) as signs of Soviet influence. Something which did the Americans major harm or at least irritation in the long-run through the "They may be bastards, but they're our bastards" policy. Noriega, Mohammad Shah, Saddam, Pinochet to an extent, all sketchy to put it mildly but less worrying than left-leaning democracies. Only to have them range from embarrassing to security risks to full-blown regional destabilisers.

Hell Ho Chi Minh was trained by the Soviets and even he looked to the US for support and aide before they started backing the French in Indochina.

So back to the question: From what I've read, had the Americans been more open to negotiating with Castro's new regime and swallow at least part-nationalisation of previously American dominated industries, Castro would flat have stayed away from Moscow. He is (or was depending on how effective you believe Cuban State misinformation is) a pragmatic, power-hungry man. Let's be honest, do you think Castro really thought he could last long as an out-and-out enemy of a global superpower, right next door?

I have no doubts he would have jumped at US recognition for a sensible price. How Cuba would look today is debatable. It would be the Jewel of Latin American tourism, as continued American influence means continued mob influence and that means Casinos by the dozen. Whoever mentioned Rio as a parrallel is on to something IMO, Cuba's large middle-class and the island retaining even a fraction of its heavy American investment could see Havanna become a bustling commerical centre, albeit one surrounded by major poverty. Politically I think at least for some time Castro would retain a Mexican-style "one-party democracy", though considering the large, quite westenised middle-class Cuba had I'm not sure how long such gerrymandering and populism would last, again some more idealist US President might object to it, or more cynically tire of Castro for one reason or another. Cuba's welfare would certainly be more limited though I can see Castro pushing for some grand gesture like Universal Healthcare at least. This might be easy as the proximity of America could see a training cycle comparable to Indian doctors working in the British NHS.

All in all I think Castro's Revolution or something equally ground-breaking is needed purely to upset the Banana Republic system of government. Despite what some rightly upset Cuban emigres say, no Castro certainly doens't equal democracy and plenty.
 
Another good political will question. I think that a US based support for Fidel would have let his revolution become a "Kinder, gentler" form of revolution, with more economic, industrial and even military ties to the US. But, as we saw in Viet Nam and other places, the revolutionary who called himself "Communist" was always the "Bad Guy" to the US.

Has anyone read Jingo by Terry Pratchett? He looks at some of these issues. In a MOST entertaining, funny and scathing way.

Bobindelaware
 
Last edited:
the revolutionary who called himself "Communist" was always the "Bad Guy" to the US.

Indeed, but Castro's Revolution was "National Orthodox", a very broad leftist liberation movement, he certainly didn't colour himself a communist until 1961/2
 

Baskilisk

Banned
I'd like to think you'd end up with a Puerto Rica type situation, only on a much larger scale. Yes, it's highly unlikely, despite being extremely plausible.
 

boredatwork

Banned
Everyone seems to assume that greater US influence would lead Cuba to be a craphole.

Apparently no one has ever visited Puerto Rico - highest GDP in the carribean - not exactly a miserable place to live by any metric - and far better on most than all of the neighbors.

Or the Virgin Islands, for that matter.
 

maverick

Banned
There's a difference about US territories and areas under US influence...:rolleyes:

But your point stands, even if not that strongly...

The people thinking that Cuba was better under Castro forget that Batista would have fallen on his own, and that democracy would have eventually won out...besides, while the Medical and Social issues advanced under Castro, Cuba was pretty much ahead in those items even before Castro came to power, Literacy somewhere in the 70% to 80% IIRC...
 
The people thinking that Cuba was better under Castro forget that Batista would have fallen on his own, and that democracy would have eventually won out.

Primarily because Batista, believe it or not, was a Commie propped up by the US (seriously, the Communist Party backed Batista, out of all people :eek:).
 
I am also joining the chorus of those who believe that we should have outbid the Soviets into bringing Castro into our sphere of influence. The only reason Castro declared himself a Marxist Leninist was because he wanted all the power to himself.

I believe that Castro would have taken our money in exchange for the American businesses that he nationalized. We might have to swallow concessions such as closing all military bases in Guantanamo Bay. This would butterfly away the Russians shipping weapons to Cuba. And we would have to find someplace else to detain Islamic terrorists.

Also, Che Guevara would have been extremely unhappy that Fidel decided to be friends with the Yanquis.
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
Apparently no one has ever visited Puerto Rico - highest GDP in the carribean - not exactly a miserable place to live by any metric - and far better on most than all of the neighbors.

Don't know much about Puerto Rico, but I am shure
the right of the Puerto Rican to move freely to the US mainland and back played an impotant part in that development.
I can't see the US giving Cubans the same right.
 
Comparing Peurto Rico to Cuba is pretty thin, as said US influence is differant to US control. Had the USA gotten control of Cuba and killed its domestic political scene then yes it would be better now. Problem is that its pretty hard to do that without it being purchased in the 1850s (which has so many butterflies, ACW included) unless uber-hawks win through in 1898.

If you have an 1898 pod, again a nationalist backlash is bound to happen, hence someone has to pull a Castro eventually, otherwise you risk a Vietnam scenario closer to home.

Hence, a liberal hawk US is the best answer to Castro, co-opt, take the nationalisations and you've secured the W. Hempishere for the next few decades, particularly if the example makes America except left-wing democracies like Chile over the nasty alternative.
 
Top