Noi non ci saremo - An Italian spin-off of "Protect and Survive: A Timeline"

[Chipperback]

Welcome back, Mario

What I just read is some seriously crazy business. How can you fight a war, when you are fighting amongst yourselves?

Keep it coming, Mario. Please, keep it coming!!!!!

 

[Mario Rossi]

Thank you all for feedback, I'm sincerely impressed and I'm happy to see that it gathers comments also from new readers.

Wow.


Incredible work here, Mario - you've achieved the difficult task of describing an incredibly chaotic scenario with complete clarity - I must say that, even knowing what was to come, I was rather on the edge of my seat; the level of detail down to Regimental names and equipment is fascinating - I also enjoyed the bit of trivia about Italy's first shots in the war coming from a hunting rifle!

The divisions in Italy are very worrying, and I can't imagine the addition of a few megatons into the equation will do anything to calm the tensions. Chilling, plausible, exciting. I can't wait for the next installment!

I had some good teachers

I think that even not aiming at the accuracy (sometimes maniacal) of many techno-thriller or TLs, it is a good thing to do your best to offer a well-researched picture to the readers; regarding divisions, please note that some of them are straight from OTL

Good Job! Keep it up! I'm looking forward to see more.

Who are the unusually camouflaged troops? Italian Special Forces?

In a their own way they are "special" for sure; the answer is inside the chapter itself, and around a structure held very dear by Cossiga.

Two Yugoslav commandos get one-shotted by an Italian architect with a hunting rifle?

Bravo.

In several part of Italy hunting is an high developed custom (personally I do not enjoy it at all), so find a good shooter it's not difficult; the same for a single shot killing two when they are almost cheek-to-cheek
Probably they were just conscripted scouting troopers, because the bulk of the Yugoslav commando forces should have been busied by more glamorous targets like NADGE stations.

Very descriptive and engaging Mario; chilling too.

The best is yet to come

Could you explain where the Italian continuity of government bunkers are?

That would make it easier to understand.

The place where Italian government is (or should be...) headed will be revealed in the next installment ; however they are right now in the Alghero-Fertilia Airport, Sassari province, located in the western part of Sardinia.

Neutrality won't save Romania. As a long-time member of the Warsaw Pact, its on NATO targetting list whether it follows the Soviets in or not.

Albania, on the other hand, might be able to get away with it...

Assuming, of course, the Yugoslavs didn't overrun it.

Speaking in long term, they're on the same boat of other "aligned" countries; but right now, excepted for some "unavoidable" misfiring by both factions, no one is touching them: you're right, NATO has surely Romanian targets in their list, and USSR has surely plans to occupy the renegade Romania. Ceausescu stayin' out it's fine for everyone, at least for the moment: WP do not have to worry about them and Hungarians leap for each other throat or to protect Ploiesti; the West, and I have in mind mainly Italy and Greece, is an enemy short, still something good.

Waging war to Albania? Hoxha was paranoid about an invasion (he filled the beaches with Atlantic Wall-style turrets to prevent it from the sea and could count on the mountains in the rest of the country), it will be probably a long and bloody fight in the Balkan winter (ask to WWII Italian or Greece troops how hard it could be) for a Yugoslavia with his best alpine units in Italy and Austria. Remember what Soviets are getting in northern Norway...

 

[Mario Rossi]

Chilling and engaging Mario good work, very realistic in the military and civilian outlook of Italy...sadly.

Qualche santo ci aiuterà, paraphrasing Amedeo Minghi

I hope you have recognized the SISMI officer namesake

What I just read is some seriously crazy business. How can you fight a war, when you are fighting amongst yourselves?

Keep it coming, Mario. Please, keep it coming!!!!!

Thank you, and I already said, expect you fights not only among Italians, but also between Italians and other allies

 

[Manfr]

Wonderful Mario !!

While I'm sad for my beloved Jugoslavs invading us, this was really an astonishing piece of fiction !

Now, as a Socialist, I'm a bit concerned of seeing my poor Craxi and Pertini in Capo Marrargiu, especially with Cossiga smiling so wickedly while they're surrounded by Gladio guys Oh, well, Andreotti surely won't mind the situation, and neither will Spadolini

 

[Dunois]

Great work Mario, so Sardinia is indeed becoming the point of retreat of the Italian government as I expected, this is a very good move in a sea of utter confusion.

The divisions in Italian society will really explode in the open it seems, for better or for worse!

The bit about Yugoslavia is interesting, is there a OTL precedent for this?

 

[lukedalton]

Qualche santo ci aiuterà, paraphrasing Amedeo Minghi

Servirà tutto quanto il paradiso i fear

I hope you have recognized the SISMI officer namesake

(little voice) no

Andreotti as the deadpan snarker is spot on as the personality clash between Craxi and Pertini (they were too much strong willed to work well together in a non clear chain of command)
Continue Mario you are doing an outstandig work...even if the theme is a little depressing

 

[Manfr]

Servirà tutto quanto il paradiso i fear


(little voice) no

Andreotti as the deadpan snarker is spot on as the personality clash between Craxi and Pertini (they were too much strong willed to work well together in a non clear chain of command)
Continue Mario you are doing an outstandig work...even if the theme is a little depressing

Well, so far, we aren't doing THAT bad, I was trembling after having read the first debate between Army leaders

 

[Mario Rossi]

Wonderful Mario !!

While I'm sad for my beloved Jugoslavs invading us, this was really an astonishing piece of fiction !

Now, as a Socialist, I'm a bit concerned of seeing my poor Craxi and Pertini in Capo Marrargiu, especially with Cossiga smiling so wickedly while they're surrounded by Gladio guys Oh, well, Andreotti surely won't mind the situation, and neither will Spadolini

Grazie! Un altro italiano! secondo Paolo Villaggio, adesso siamo abbastanza per fondare un partito politico di cui tutti segretamente aspiriamo alla presidenza

My compliments for having detected our gladiatori and their hometown (BTW, researching for it has required me quite a bit of work; lucky me to find out a Sardinian website with the island's aerial photos uncensored!).

Don't forget Scalfaro...What will turn out of this..strange situation is a crucial part of Italy's fate. Wait and see.

Great work Mario, so Sardinia is indeed becoming the point of retreat of the Italian government as I expected, this is a very good move in a sea of utter confusion.

The divisions in Italian society will really explode in the open it seems, for better or for worse!

The bit about Yugoslavia is interesting, is there a OTL precedent for this?

Hi, Dunois, I hope this chapter has answered your questions about my country you asked in Jack's thread.

Sardinia should be indeed the safest place for them, ANDREA DORIA or VITTORIO VENETO in a subs-infested Mediterranean Sea are too risky.

About Yugoslavia: the core of the story is true or at least so told Admiral Mamula itself in Slućaj Jugoslavija; I made some adjustment to fit it in the P&Sverse and I think there is no need to say how absurd were the Mamula's assumptions.

From "Thinking about Yugoslavia" by Sabrina P. Ramet

Branko Mamula served as chief of the General Staff from June 1979 to
May 1982 and as federal minister for people’s defence from May 1982 to
May 1988. He begins his account in December 1979, as Tito was
hospitalized, carrying it forward to the outbreak of war in 1991. Mamula
reveals that, in early 1980, the Italians expected that Yugoslavia would fall apart after Tito and that the Russians would take the largest portion [of the country’s territory], and in that event they wanted to maintain their right to ‘zone B’.

‘Somewhere around that time [Soviet foreign minister] Gromyko made a visit to Italy, and according to the information we received, it appears that the Italians would not oppose a Russian occupation of part of Yugoslavia, on the condition that Italy’s right to ‘zone B’ would be recognized . . . Inside Yugoslavia a special war against Italy was being planned – involving sabotage, information-warfare, and aerial and marine landing units

Servirà tutto quanto il paradiso i fear


(little voice) no

Andreotti as the deadpan snarker is spot on as the personality clash between Craxi and Pertini (they were too much strong willed to work well together in a non clear chain of command)
Continue Mario you are doing an outstandig work...even if the theme is a little depressing

Geometra Calboni is in the house!

Thank you, Luke!

 

[Mario Rossi]

Well, so far, we aren't doing THAT bad, I was trembling after having read the first debate between Army leaders

As I said, a struggle between the two Socialists exists, but after the ruling in Forte Braschi, they are working the best they can for the country; this pact however is still to be trialed by (nuclear) fire.

 

[lukedalton]

Grazie! Un altro italiano! secondo Paolo Villaggio, adesso siamo abbastanza per fondare un partito politico di cui tutti segretamente aspiriamo alla presidenza

Naaa io preferisco la gestione delle finanze

Don't forget Scalfaro...What will turn out of this..strange situation is a crucial part of Italy's fate. Wait and see.

I swear if at any times he say: Io non ci stò i can die from laugh

About Yugoslavia: the core of the story is true or at least so told Admiral Mamula itself in Slućaj Jugoslavija; I made some adjustment to fit it in the P&Sverse and I think there is no need to say how absurd were the Mamula's assumptions.

This type had smoke some serious thing

Geometra Calboni is in the house!

Damn i'm an idiot, how can i forget...oh right i go in the aquarium of the megapresident or worse i crucifix myself in the mens hall

Thank you, Luke!

No thanks to you for the story

 

[ivfl]

Ironically Romania would probably end up with fewer nukes hitting it despite being a Warsaw Pact member and Yugoslavia with more.Since the yugoslavs decided to join the war there would be last minute rethinking of the existing nuclear war attack scenarios with them being hit on a heavier basis.Of course Romania would not be forgotten Bucharest,Ploiesti, and a few other targets would be taken out regardless.Ceausescu might not have been friendly with the soviets but no one in the West in 1984 was under any ilusions about what kind of person he was.

 

[Archangel]

Glad to see this TL back, Mario!

Sardinia should be the safest part of Italy post-exchange.

I fear the Gladio activity in Mainland Italy may escape the control of the Italian Government, and that the situation might become chaotic especially within areas with more pro-Soviet elements.

 

[Mario Rossi]

Ironically Romania would probably end up with fewer nukes hitting it despite being a Warsaw Pact member and Yugoslavia with more.Since the yugoslavs decided to join the war there would be last minute rethinking of the existing nuclear war attack scenarios with them being hit on a heavier basis.Of course Romania would not be forgotten Bucharest,Ploiesti, and a few other targets would be taken out regardless.Ceausescu might not have been friendly with the soviets but no one in the West in 1984 was under any ilusions about what kind of person he was.

Plans exists for any scenario, and some of them will be probably http://airminded.org/2008/08/07/a-strange-game/crazier that these

Glad to see this TL back, Mario!

Sardinia should be the safest part of Italy post-exchange.

I fear the Gladio activity in Mainland Italy may escape the control of the Italian Government, and that the situation might become chaotic especially within areas with more pro-Soviet elements.

Thank you

It would not be the first time...

 

[ivfl]

Thruth be told after the exchange no one would care about Gladio with Italy in ruins and millions dead or dying.
One ironic thing about the romanians is that they may end up nuked by the soviets for in their eyes betrayal of the Warsaw Pact poor country whatever decision it took its screwed.

 

[Manfr]

Something potentially very important is the interplay of Communist factions. We all know that Cossutta's guys will be actual fifth columns when Red Army comes: however, what can we say of the Ingrao group on the far left side (anti-authoritarian communists) and of the Amendola group on the right (socialdemocratic, pro-Ostpolitik and pro-Soviet on Afghanistan but also the first Communidyt faction, with current President of the Republic Napolitano and economist Luciano Barca, to meet regularly American representatives). Considering that his Miglioristi control a fair deal of influence, from Legacooperative to Regione Emilia Romagna and many cities, if they decide to be loyal to the government even in spite of a centrist majority declaring for neutrality, they would be a tremendous asset.

 

[lukedalton]

Something potentially very important is the interplay of Communist factions. We all know that Cossutta's guys will be actual fifth columns when Red Army comes: however, what can we say of the Ingrao group on the far left side (anti-authoritarian communists) and of the Amendola group on the right (socialdemocratic, pro-Ostpolitik and pro-Soviet on Afghanistan but also the first Communidyt faction, with current President of the Republic Napolitano and economist Luciano Barca, to meet regularly American representatives). Considering that his Miglioristi control a fair deal of influence, from Legacooperative to Regione Emilia Romagna and many cities, if they decide to be loyal to the government even in spite of a centrist majority declaring for neutrality, they would be a tremendous asset.

Yes, try to keeping the long tradition of sectarian difference in the long run they will probably more occupied in fight each other than to pose a coerent threat to the State, unless Berlinguer get to keep all united for the duration of this emergency in a pro-state/nationalistic stand, in true Berlinguer is the last of the communist segretary with enough carisma to do that and in the end is eurocommunist position were in strong opposition with the one of Moscow so he will not have much doubt about is destiny if the soviet win

 

[Mario Rossi]

Thruth be told after the exchange no one would care about Gladio with Italy in ruins and millions dead or dying.
One ironic thing about the romanians is that they may end up nuked by the soviets for in their eyes betrayal of the Warsaw Pact poor country whatever decision it took its screwed.

I do not agree fully with the first statement. Sure, there's very little that a small unit equipped with light arms and explosives can do in a nuclear explosion-targeted place excepted vanishing in the air like anyone else; overall, however, the training received and the skills comparable with or better than the standard regular Army soldiers mean that some of them could survive, armed, all along Italy together with the solid group at least for the moment still in Sardinia; the stance that they and their political referents are going to choose regarding Italian authorities, it's a key issue for the future of the country.

Something potentially very important is the interplay of Communist factions. We all know that Cossutta's guys will be actual fifth columns when Red Army comes: however, what can we say of the Ingrao group on the far left side (anti-authoritarian communists) and of the Amendola group on the right (socialdemocratic, pro-Ostpolitik and pro-Soviet on Afghanistan but also the first Communidyt faction, with current President of the Republic Napolitano and economist Luciano Barca, to meet regularly American representatives). Considering that his Miglioristi control a fair deal of influence, from Legacooperative to Regione Emilia Romagna and many cities, if they decide to be loyal to the government even in spite of a centrist majority declaring for neutrality, they would be a tremendous asset.

Cossutta is gone, and with the "state of war" laws in force his pro-Soviet wing is probably gone too, unless they're in one of the "Red" strongholds popping' up in several cities (please note that this is 1984 and not the 70's, so while still considerable they have neither the size nor the strong of the previous decade). We will see, sooner or later, what the rest of PCI leadership will do; right now they could be in their country houses, waiting news from Rome (and maybe in a next future from the neighborhood of Alghero).

Yes, try to keeping the long tradition of sectarian difference in the long run they will probably more occupied in fight each other than to pose a coerent threat to the State, unless Berlinguer get to keep all united for the duration of this emergency in a pro-state/nationalistic stand, in true Berlinguer is the last of the communist segretary with enough carisma to do that and in the end is eurocommunist position were in strong opposition with the one of Moscow so he will not have much doubt about is destiny if the soviet win

Berlinguer and a good part of PCI had, facing a conflict where WP is clearly the aggressor, voted for the war. As we already saw, there are people in the party (and outside the party) that do not share this view.

 

[MerryPrankster]

I was going to ask about the Communists. In Hackett's "Third World War," there's a reference to the Soviets demanding compliance from Italy and Italy facing the disdain of the Western Alliance after the defeat of the Soviets--I think the Italian Communists played a role in Italian non-involvement or ineffectiveness.

Here it seems you've gotten the Communist activity planned out. If the Communists manage to actually take control of a city, will the Soviets not nuke it when the balloon goes up?

(Of course, then you might see NATO nuke it.)

I'm imagining now a post-nuke civil war between Communists and anti-Communists.

 

[Gen_Patton]

In a their own way they are "special" for sure; the answer is inside the chapter itself, and around a structure held very dear by Cossiga.

So they're kind of an elite national police unit? Sorry for my ignorance, never been to Italy and don't know much about it or its people. Hope to see more of the good work.

 

[Mario Rossi]

I was going to ask about the Communists. In Hackett's "Third World War," there's a reference to the Soviets demanding compliance from Italy and Italy facing the disdain of the Western Alliance after the defeat of the Soviets--I think the Italian Communists played a role in Italian non-involvement or ineffectiveness.

Here it seems you've gotten the Communist activity planned out. If the Communists manage to actually take control of a city, will the Soviets not nuke it when the balloon goes up?

(Of course, then you might see NATO nuke it.)

I'm imagining now a post-nuke civil war between Communists and anti-Communists.

Hackett, otherwise a dry but effective thinker, IMVHO made a blunder depicting such scenario; the Sospasso by PCI, feared by many home and abroad, was improbable: without throwing in the usual AmeriKKKan-driven electoral frauds, note that even if they had a 35 or a 40% (exaggerating), they would have anyway needed a coalition. But excluding a small far left (that faded into oblivion in less than 10 years as a significant political force) zone occupied by Unità Proletaria , they would have been forced to compromise with non-communist parties (including a rampant PSI). And beside fringes like the Cossutta's one, even with persistent criticism and without any true love, Berlinguer preferred NATO over USSR when questioned.

The Communists you see fighting in here are a minority; but there are parts of the country or single quarters where more or less radical views are very common; many may have joined the riots just to avoid conscription or to loot, and common criminals could be in the pack too.

When the nukes start to fly, it will be very similar to the nuclear free zone issue in the UK