Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun

[Simeon]

Speaking of Africans, Japanese merchants may very well honestly get to travel to the Swahili cities, Somalia, Madagascar, and intermingle with the inhabitants of those areas.

this, especially now that the Indian Trade Board had long been established

 

[Migrant_Coconut]

(inb4 Zulu samurai take over South Africa)

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

(inb4 Zulu samurai take over South Africa)

Somewhat related to this, if Ethiopia manages to get lucky and somehow establish contact with Japan, we could see some sort of weird bonding between the two nations where they both resisted European control and have a long history with divine ruling houses and ancient history in general.

 

[GameBawesome]

Somewhat related to this, if Ethiopia manages to get lucky and somehow establish contact with Japan, we could see some sort of weird bonding between the two nations where they both resisted European control and have a long history with divine ruling houses and ancient history in general.

That also depends if Ethiopia stays united and doesn’t go through its “Era of Princes.”

Its edging to the 18th century, and Emperor Iyasu I’s assassination in 1706 spelt the decline of Solomonic prestige till Tewodros.

Because if Ethiopia remains strong and gain access to the sea, they could be a major power major in East Africa.

 

[pandizzy]

 

[Ambassador Huntsman]

True.

 

[farmerted555]

What will Japanese armies of the 18th Century look like? What sorts of weapons will they use?

 

[conman15]

I'm personally curious about their uniforms

 

[Aluma]

Onwards until the 19th Century, where European powers end up having to treat Japan as a real equal and also do a bunch of mental gymnastics to have that fit into their racist framework.

Well, this is a bit of a complicated topic, as contrary to the current message, "pure" racism has not been widely popular in the past. Most Europeans assumed the supposed superiority of their race on the basis of generally accepted truths and facts (that is: all/almost all powers were European states between the 15th and 20th centuries, most known discoveries and inventions were of European origin). They didn't hate Africans or Asians, they just considered themselves better than them (something that also happens today, e.g. Americans like to think that their country is the best in the world, the West promotes democracy and its civilization as the only right path for the development of humanity, etc. ).
But, if we want to consider the position of true believers this nonsense, the "great" thinkers and philosophers of these and subsequent centuries, it will be something like this: either the division into three human races with "destined" roles (white - higher as rulers and warriors, yellow - middle as managers and thinkers, black - lower as simple slave and servants; something that will be extremely similar to OTL) or simply Asians will be recognized as equal to Europeans and part of the same race (which, in my opinion, would have interesting results, e.g. the possible denial of the separateness of a European continent in favor of recognizing Eurasia as a whole land).

In the Age of Sail, Europeans did not view east and south Asians as inferior, but as different, geographically remote and outside their cultural community. African, North and South American, and Australian natives were obviously "inferior", being profoundly backwards in technology and social organization. (Mesoamericans fell somewhere between, behind technologically and having some horrible customs, but clearly near-peers in social organization. It is worth noting that there is a Spanish noble house who trace descent from Montezuma.)

One might compare this to the Chinese position of the period: China is civilization, all others are "barbarians".

Japan was in an odd position: self-sufficient and equal, but very aware of the "great" civilization next door, from which Japan had taken much, including religion (Buddhism), philosophy (Confucian classicism), and even writing (kanji). (Ancient Rome had a similar status for Europeans, except that it was long-fallen.)

As the Age of Sail passed into the Industrial Age, Europe leaped ahead in technology: that advantage converted maritime dominance into territorial dominance. At the same time, democratic and egalitarian ideals took hold. The obvious contradiction between those ideals and white political supremacy had to be explained away: that was the origin of race ideology, both casual and "scientific". Then as white advantages passed away, the dominance also fell.

So: TTL will be very different, because Japan will contest and disrupt what was OTL near-total maritime dominance from a very early point. At no time will Europeans ever make a Chinese-like distinction between them and all others. That will have consequences for other regions.

Some input of my own

It's likely that Japan would be seen as just another "white" people, reason being that it didnt take much mental gymnastics at all for the portuguese to think that in their first contacts with China, which they also considered civilised

Sino-Portuguese relations began when Jorge Álvares arrived in the southern city of Guangzhou in 1513.[10] Around then, Portugal established trading activities in what is now known as Southern China, gradually expanded into Macau and paid rent to the Ming Empire.[10]

The first official Portuguese visit was Fernão Pires de Andrade mission to Guangzhou (1517–1518) during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644). It was fairly successful, and the local Chinese authorities allowed the embassy, led by Tomé Pires and brought by de Andrade's flotilla, to proceed to Beijing.[11] Tomé Pires' impression of the Chinese was that they were "white like us [brancos como nós], the greater part of them dressing in cotton cloth and silk".[12] His full account also compares them to the Germans and the women whom he describes as "of our whiteness" and similar in appearance to Spanish ladies.[12]

"They look spanish really!"

 

[Zireael]

Non-Japanese naval shogun has me intrigued! A descendant of Yasuke or a new arrival?

 

[GameBawesome]

Non-Japanese naval shogun has me intrigued! A descendant of Yasuke or a new arrival?

I think that was OTL Koxinga, so he was Chinese.

 

[Ambassador Huntsman]

What will Japanese armies of the 18th Century look like? What sorts of weapons will they use?

Will be sharing early insight into that soon.

Non-Japanese naval shogun has me intrigued! A descendant of Yasuke or a new arrival?

I think that was OTL Koxinga, so he was Chinese.

Correct.

 

[Ambassador Huntsman]

Map of Daimyo 1697:​

1. Kakizaki Norihiro (蠣崎矩広): 1660-
2. Tsugaru Masatake (津軽政兕): 1667-
3. Nanbu Yukinobu (南部行信): 1642-
4. Akita Terusue (秋田輝季): 1649-
5. Mōri Tomokatsu (毛利朝勝): 1626-
6. Tozawa Masanobu (戸沢正誠): 1640-
7. Ichihashi Masanobu (市橋政信): 1623-
8. Kyogoku Takanori (京極高視): 1643-
9. Sakuma Morimochi (佐久間盛茂): 1672-
10. Tooyama Tomoharu (遠山友春): 1661-
11. Date Hiromune (伊達煕宗): 1659-
12. Souma Tsugutane (相馬義胤): 1661-
13. Shirakawa Yoshinobu (白河義信): 1647-
14. Mogami Yoshimasa (最上義雅): 1656-
15. Satake Yoshitaka (佐竹義処): 1637-
16. Utsunomiya Hirotsuna (宇都宮宏綱): 1664-
17. Sano Naotsuna (佐野直綱): 1668-
18. Oyama Toshishige (小山利重): 1652-
19. Minagawa Hirotaka (皆川広隆): 1648-
20. Hasegawa Masazumi (長谷川昌澄): 1624-
21. Ikoma Chikaoki (生駒親興): 1655-
22. Date Munetoshi (伊達宗利): 1635-
23. Uesugi Norikiyo (上杉憲清): 1661-
24. Satomi Yoshikoto (里見義言): 1667-
25. Musashino Toshikatsu (武蔵野利勝): 1647-
26. Takigawa Kazuatsu (滝川一積): 1642-
27. Murai Munetada (村井宗忠): 1661-
28. Tsuchiya Michinao (土屋逵直): 1659-
29. Oota Hirofusa (太田煕房): 1654-
30. Tokugawa Hiroyasu (徳川煕康): 1663-
31. Hisamatsu Tadamitsu (久松忠充): 1651-
32. Kawajiri Shigehiro (河尻鎮熙): 1658-
33. Inaba Tomomichi (稲葉知通): 1652-
34. Mizuno Katsumine (水野勝岑): 1697-
35. Ogasawara Nagatane (小笠原長胤): 1668-
36. Sanada Yukioto (真田幸音): 1656-
37. Mori Hiroyoshi (森熙可): 1662-
38. Yamauchi Toyomasa (山内豊昌): 1641-
39. Ikeda Tsunetora (池田恒虎): 1644-
40. Gamou Nagateru (蒲生長照): 1652-
41. Nagao Kagemasa (長尾景将): 1665-
42. Sassa Katsutoo (佐々勝遠): 1662-
43. Maeda Hirokata (前田煕堅): 1683-
44. Kaga Hisachika (加賀尚親): 1662-
45. Shibata Katsukado (柴田勝門): 1642-
46. Anekouji Hirotsuna (姉小路煕綱): 1673-
47. Oda Nobuie (織田信家): 1667- (Main Oda clan lands)
48. Kuki Takatsune (九鬼隆常): 1646-
49. Kitabatake Takehiro (北畠武熙): 1678-
50. Kudō Kanehiro (工藤包煕): 1678-
51. Sugaya Hiroyori (菅谷熙頼): 1662-
52. Seki Narinaga (関成長): 1610-
53. Mori Hironao (森熙直): 1654-
54. Asano Hiroakira (浅野煕晟): 1659-
55. Nagaoka Tsugutoshi (長岡嗣利): 1643-
56. Niwa Nagatsugu (丹羽長次): 1643-
57. Akechi Mitsumasa (明智光政): 1648-
58. Ikeda Yoshihiro (池田由煕): 1674-
59. Takagi Masanobu (高木正陳): 1665-
60. Nakagawa Hisamichi (中川久通): 1663-
61. Hashiba Hidekuni (羽柴秀国): 1651-
62. Miyabe Nagayori (宮部長頼): 1662-
63. Ukita Nobuchika (宇喜多信親): 1669-
64. Nanjou Munekiyo (南条宗清): 1647-
65. Horio Hiroharu (堀尾熙晴): 1648-
66. Sengoku Masaakira (仙石政明): 1659-
67. Amago Kanehisa (尼子兼久): 1646-
68. Urakusai Hiroie (有楽斎煕家): 1652-
69. Hachisuka Takashige (蜂須賀隆重): 1634-
70. Ito Sukezane (伊東祐実): 1644-
71. Kuroda Hiroyuki (黒田熙之): 1655-
72. Mōri Hironari (毛利煕就): 1673-
73. Miyoshi Yasutsugu (三好康嗣): 1641-
74. Sogo Masahiro (十河存煕): 1655-
75. Kawano Michihisa (河野通尚): 1659-
76. Chosokabe Hirochika (長宗我部煕親): 1651-
77. Saionji Kinhiro (西園寺公熙): 1653-
78. Otomo Yoshitaka (大友義孝): 1641-
79. Ryuzōji Hiroie (龍造寺煕家): 1662-
80. Matsura Takashi (松浦棟): 1646-
81. Sou Yoshizane (宗義真): 1639-
82. Hori Chikaoki (堀親興): 1664-
83. Tachibana Taneaki (立花種明): 1644-
84. Horiuchi Ujiteru (堀内氏輝): 1663-
85. Shimazu Hirohisa (島津熙久): 1670-

 

[Dragonboy]

@Ambassador Huntsman Love your maps!

 

[GameBawesome]

I hope you don’t mind me asking this, but what are some of the main castles of some of the major clans in their home domains? Now, we know about Azuchi Castle for the main Oda Clan, Himeji Castle for the Hashiba Clan, and possibly Sunpu Castle for the Tokugawa Clan, and guessing Kitanosho Castle for the Shibata, Usuki Castle for the Otomo, Okayama Castle for the Ukita, Saga Castle for the Ryuzoji.

But what are some of the main castles in their home domains for other major Clans such the Date, Miyoshi, Shimazu, Mori (Since I don’t think Hiroshima Castle was built) Chosokabe, Sanada, Takigawa, Ikeda, etc. Maybe a list for that could be a possibility

 

[anyone]

Something I've been wondering, since formosa and luzon are governed differently from the normal daimyo system (if I'm understanding it correctly), could those systems be used as a model on the home islands to further centralization down the line?

 

[Ambassador Huntsman]

@Ambassador Huntsman Love your maps!

Thank you!!

I hope you don’t mind me asking this, but what are some of the main castles of some of the major clans in their home domains? Now, we know about Azuchi Castle for the main Oda Clan, Himeji Castle for the Hashiba Clan, and possibly Sunpu Castle for the Tokugawa Clan, and guessing Kitanosho Castle for the Shibata, Usuki Castle for the Otomo, Okayama Castle for the Ukita, Saga Castle for the Ryuzoji.

But what are some of the main castles in their home domains for other major Clans such the Date, Miyoshi, Shimazu, Mori (Since I don’t think Hiroshima Castle was built) Chosokabe, Sanada, Takigawa, Ikeda, etc. Maybe a list for that could be a possibility

All those you guessed are correct. Here's a sampling of other main castles:

Main Oda lands: Gifu Castle
Akechi clan: Kameyama Castle (亀山城)
Mōri clan: Hiroshima Castle (広島城) (it was still built and Hiroshima is still an important city but still outsized by Shimonoseki)
Shimazu clan: Kagoshima Castle (鹿児島城)
Miyoshi clan: Ichinomiya Castle (一宮城)
Chosokabe clan: Urado Castle (浦戸城)
Takigawa clan: Maebashi Castle (前橋城)
Ikeda (main) clan: Hyogo Castle (兵庫城)
Sanada clan: Matsuo Castle (松尾城)
Date clan: Yonezawa Castle (米沢城)
Niwa clan: Obama Castle (小浜城)
Maeda clan: Komaruyama Castle (小丸山城)
Sassa clan: Toyama Castle (富山城)
Murai clan: Odawara Castle (小田原城)
Musashino clan: Musashino Castle (武蔵野城)
Anekouji clan: Sakurabora Castle (桜洞城)
Oota clan: Nirayama Castle (韮山城)
Kudō clan: Ueno Castle (上野城)

Something I've been wondering, since formosa and luzon are governed differently from the normal daimyo system (if I'm understanding it correctly), could those systems be used as a model on the home islands to further centralization down the line?

They could be an inspiration but those provinces are governed in an unorthodox fashion because of the fact that the Japanese are not part of the native population that happens to also outnumber them.

 

[anyone]

Would OTL African colonies be an apt comparison?

 

[Simeon]

Would OTL African colonies be an apt comparison?

far from it; all of those are formal provinces, after all

Luzon province is positively Northern Irish in character, however.

 

[Ambassador Huntsman]

Would OTL African colonies be an apt comparison?

far from it; all of those are formal provinces, after all

Luzon province is positively Northern Irish in character, however.

Northern Ireland and Luson may be a fair comparison, Bireito is completely unique because you have the natives, the colonizing ruling class, and the Chinese immigrants as well as foreign merchants and artisans and many of the mountainous tribes are also autonomous vassals. Not to mention the Shimazu clan also controls a few outposts on the island directly separate from the provincial governments.