Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun
- Thread starter Ambassador Huntsman
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So, modern Japan had finally come, and its legal warlordism had all been put into the dustbin of history.
states' daimyo rights.
Ironically enough, the introduction of formal taxation and legislation disincentivized for good the crafty scheme of centralising the economic centre of gravity that we have seen in Edo IOTL. In the era well before industrialisation - balancing the feudal lord and central government interests may as well be akin to walking on a tightrope, and the increasing friction with the former and police powers with the latter will not be appreciated by the people on its receiving ends.
That said - this will also incentivize the westernisation of the financial system, as well as finally unifying the currency under a single standard independent of rice.
Speaking of the navy, shouldn't the Oda government also impose regulations, if not an outright limit, on the independent construction and operation of warships?
This puts them closer to some concepts like balancing their budgets, small central government, and
Ironically enough, the introduction of formal taxation and legislation disincentivized for good the crafty scheme of centralising the economic centre of gravity that we have seen in Edo IOTL. In the era well before industrialisation - balancing the feudal lord and central government interests may as well be akin to walking on a tightrope, and the increasing friction with the former and police powers with the latter will not be appreciated by the people on its receiving ends.
That said - this will also incentivize the westernisation of the financial system, as well as finally unifying the currency under a single standard independent of rice.
I am heavily leaning towards the guess that the domain armies and navies will be transformed into the respective equivalents of the US National Guard and a decentralised iteration of the Coast Guard.
Speaking of the navy, shouldn't the Oda government also impose regulations, if not an outright limit, on the independent construction and operation of warships?
This practically limits the aborigines to being constables of Bireitou's daimyo; they're lucky that their place didn't saw as heavy an immigration of the warrior class as Luzon. This also failed to formalise the legal standing of the Kingdom of Tatuturo, threatening its abolishment.
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Tbf breaking it down to manageable chunks would be a good thing considering getting the TL to the 18th and 19th century would be a massive undertaking.
Tbf I would be very interested to see how things would happen if it got to the 19th and 20th century.
Ooh the reforms for centralisation is defo a good thing! Even though the main daimyos aren't still directly under the thumb of the Oda Daijo Daijon its still an improvement.
Will there any impact on western thoughts on Japanese Art and Architecture?
Was there any Buddhist apologetic due to increase contact with west?
Will Nobutomo try to consolidate his hold on Buddhist clergy to promote his rule? Will there any impact on religious fremework due to new reforms? Like increase of Buddhist missionaries in Japanese colonies or active efforts to curtail Christian missionaries or converts there.
Was there any Buddhist apologetic due to increase contact with west?
Will Nobutomo try to consolidate his hold on Buddhist clergy to promote his rule? Will there any impact on religious fremework due to new reforms? Like increase of Buddhist missionaries in Japanese colonies or active efforts to curtail Christian missionaries or converts there.
Yup!!
You're gonna see shifts and changes in the relationship and balance of power between the Oda clan and the various feudal lords throughout the 17th and 18th centuries. There is a certain direction things will generally go in but it's not gonna be a smooth ride. And the friction will also occur between different lords as well as different classes - samurai, nobility, peasantry, merchants/craftsmen, even different religions.
Japan's interests leans towards maximizing its naval power right now and moving forward much more so than its armies. That being said, the Azuchi navy is much bigger and much more technologically advanced than the other daimyos' navies and would easily crush any of them, hence why no regulations have been imposed. Also, the fudai vassals always had to contribute from the very beginning.
I'll see how it goes.
There will be Western influences on Japanese art and architecture. Watch for that in a few decades.
Other than greater control over the imperial court, which patronizes the Buddhist temples, no on religious reforms. The Oda will continue their hands-off approach towards religion for the most part aside from suppressing Roman Catholicism.
I was thinking more of TTL's ukiyo-e and neoclassical art, but do you do!
I might need to use some for the TL in the future as we get further and further from the POD.
Artists like Rembrandt and Diego Velasquez could have emigrated into Japan for some reason, and from there, we could see how they have been influenced by the ukiy—
That said, much of the ukiyo-e genre must have been butterflied away and substituted by things that are alien from what we have known, especially considering the absence of the massive city at Edo, and the radical difference that the tripartite cities of Azuchi, Kyoto, and Sakai — as well as the absence of formal social stratification and quartering of its citizenry and districts — give.
The pleasure districts would have given way to their more sprawling and haphazardly-planned counterparts, as well as the military and historical exploits that happened well into the 17th century.
That said — Rembrandt's Night Watch and Diego Velázquez' Las Meninas can prove to be easy templates for speculating the development of "Japanese Baroque" paintings.
ISTM that during the embassy to Europe, the Vatican would try to to establish contact with the Japanese and explain that "Catholic" =/= "Spanish-controlled". This will be obvious to the Japanese in France, especially after meeting Cardinal Richelieu. The Church will want to regain contact with Catholics or at the moment ex-Catholics in Japan. One thing they can offer is priests who will assure Azuchi of the loyalty of Catholics. As it is, the suppression of Catholicism in Japan has created an aggrieved population which could be a "fifth column" in any future war with Spain. By allowing French or perhaps Italian priests to minister to the Catholics, Azuchi can eliminate the grievance while excluding any Spanish influence. (The new cohort of priests will be very explicit about "rendering unto Caesar".)
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War fan, katana, red armor...yup Madara Uchiha
Portrait of Wakizaka Yasumoto
The embers of the Imperial Liberties' War have just been extinguished so Protestant-Catholic tension is still pretty high and Japan is currently seen as more pro-Protestant because of its alliance with the Dutch and close relations with the English. Not to mention Cardinal Richelieu alienated Pope Urban VIII and others in the Catholic Church for French foreign policy so being close with the former doesn't help at all. The thing with Azuchi is that they're suspicious of organized religion in general, including both the Roman Catholic Church and Ishiyama Hongan-ji. They do, however, covertly back the Church of Yamato because it has no foreign ties and it has been able to absorb much of the Japanese Catholic population even if the doctrine is 99% identical with Rome. Christianity itself not being banned is the thing that prevents the creation of a "fifth column".
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Speaking of churches — which city had the biggest church building and congregation within Japan? And is Hizen still teeming with Catholic dissidents, or have they largely turned to the Japanese church or other syncretic and charismatic religions?
Also, did the Catholic priests of the old manage to establish full-fledged plazas around their churches, complete with encouraging stone structures around and commerce within it?
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What it does is make clear that "Catholic" is separate from "Spanish". Also that even being a high-ranking church official doesn't control political views.
"99%" of doctrine includes the Petrine succession and "establishment". Expelling all foreign priests at this stage is very drastic. Who was left to staff the "Church of Yamato"? Also, in Europe, the embassy will learn of the "investiture" question: that in the established churches, the state appoints or at least approves all upper-rank clergy.
Sakai has the biggest church and congregation. Hizen still has Catholic dissidents but their numbers are decreasing fast. The churches in the major cities are generally of the native architectural with additions like crosses decorating the roof.
While Catholic doesn't necessarily mean Spanish, the Catholics in Japan have been most influenced by the Spanish and Portuguese, not Italians or the French. Not to mention th biggest source of dissent in the realm are Catholic Filipinos in Luson province who are very sympathetic to the Spanish so in the East, being Catholic de facto means pro-Spanish and/or pro-Portuguese, although the Portuguese Restoration will definitely complicate this situation.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Church of Yamato is as similar to Roman Catholicism as the Church of England under the reign of Henry VIII. Yes, Henry VIII left the Roman Catholic Church, but the theology of the Church of England didn't drastically change from Rome's until the reign of Edward VI. The main change so far is that the rites are starting to become recited in Japanese rather than Latin, but the Church of Yamato still holds on to beliefs like justification through faith and good works and transsubstantiation. Basically, there's no "Japanese Reformation". That being said, expelling all foreign priests was a drastic move that significantly weakened Christianity in Japan and disrupted the Kirishitan community in the realm. However, by 1632 churches in many urban areas and in the Kinki region were largely run by Japanese priests whereas foreign priests predominated much more in Kyushu. The top brass though was still fully European prior to the crackdown.
Anyways — is conducting mass within private residences and open spaces quite common in the Azuchi-Momoyama period? That can explain the dearth of dedicated Church architecture within the country IOTL.
Hence — I assume that the dedicated church buildings that would be built would take after the shoin-zukuri style of architecture:
Now, I have much more of an idea on how Christian art would look like in Japan.
Aside from this — can you provide estimates on the size of Sakai's congregation, as well as the number and size of the churches within the city?
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Chapter 69: A Survey of the Greater Oda Clan
Chapter 69: A Survey of the Greater Oda Clan
After nearly 60 years of continuous rule of Japan by the Oda clan, the latter’s position was utterly unshakeable. A contributing factor was the loyalty and distribution of the clan’s blood relatives that had either founded cadet branches on their own or had become heirs to various families. The most prominent of these could be found in the main branch of the Oda line, including the Konoe imperial regents and the Kanbe clan line. However, many others stemmed not only from the bloodlines of Oda Nobunaga’s many many sons but beyond.
Kitabatake clan (北畠家)
A noble family, the Kitabatake originally became prominent when Kitabatake Chikafusa (北畠親房) and his son Akiie (北畠顕家) came to wield political influence in the court of Emperor Go-Daigo (後醍醐天皇) during the earlier Kenmu Restoration (建武の新政) of 1333-1336, and Chikafusa’s descendants continued to hold key positions in the Southern Court (南朝) during the Nanboku-cho period (南北朝時代). They eventually came to control the province of Ise province as its governors even into the Sengoku Period. In 1569, after surrendering to Nobunaga, Kitabatake Tomonori (北畠具教) adopted the former’s second son as one of the terms. After fully succeeding the family, Kitabatake Nobuoki continued to govern Ise province and even added a part of Kii province to his domain. As a family of nobility, Nobuoki and his sons were crucial bridges between Azuchi and Kyoto. After Nobuoki’s death in 1630, his 5 year old grandson through his second son Kitabatake Tomonobu (北畠具信), Tomotoyo, would take over as the head of the family but clan affairs were run by Nobuoki’s third son, Takanaga.
Kitabatake Nobuoki (北畠信意): 1576-1630 (l. 1558-1630)
Kitabatake Tomotoyo (北畠具豊): 1630- (l. 1625-)
Miyoshi clan (三好氏)
Portrait of Miyoshi Yasutaka
Portrait of Miyoshi Yasutaka
The Miyoshi clan started off as a cadet branch of the Ogasawara clan (小笠原氏) based in Awa province, siding with the Southern Court during the Nanboku-cho period. They came to become key retainers of the Hosokawa clan after the final triumph of the Northern Court and the Ashikaga shogunate in 1392. Their power would begin to grow outside of Awa Province in the late 15th and early 16th centuries through a series of marriage alliances and backing the victors in Hosokawa succession disputes. The Miyoshi would eventually eclipse their overlords and become major daimyo in their own right under Miyoshi Nagayoshi (三好長慶), at one point even pulling the strings behind the Ashikaga shogunate during the tenure of Ashikaga Yoshiteru (足利義輝). However, after Nagayoshi’s death, his retainers in turn would usurp power from within and instigated the overthrow of Yoshiteru in favor of his cousin Yoshihide (足利義栄), weakening the clan and its control over political affairs and leaving it unable to effectively resist Nobunaga’s armies. Eventually, surviving members of the clan became Oda vassals, one of whom would lead the clan’s comeback. Miyoshi Yasunaga, a younger brother of Nagayoshi, participated in the Oda subjugation of Shikoku in 1582 and as a reward was not only restored in Awa province but also adopted Nobunaga’s third son, Kanbe Nobutaka, as his heir. From there, through Nobutaka, the Miyoshi clan became the pre-eminent daimyo in Shikoku, with his sons Yasutaka and Yasukata seeing success as military commanders in both the Iberian-Japanese and Furuwatari Wars.
Miyoshi Nobutaka (三好信孝): 1585-1621 (l. 1558-1621)
Miyoshi Yasutaka (三好康孝): 1621-1639 (l. 1583-1639)
Miyoshi Yasunori (三好康則): 1639- (l. 1606-)
Shimazu clan (島津氏)
The origins of the Shimazu clan are shrouded in mystery, with various sources either identifying the clan founder Shimazu Tadahisa (島津忠久) as either the true son of minor noble Koremune Hirokoto (惟宗広言) or the latter’s adopted son, with Tadahisa’s true father being Minamoto no Yoritomo (源頼朝), the first shogun and founder of the Kamakura shogunate (鎌倉幕府), himself. In any case, Tadahisa became the steward of the Shimazu Estate (島津荘) in southern Kyushu and subsequently became the constables of Hyuga, Satsuma, and Oosumi provinces, establishing him and his descendants as the lords of southern Kyushu. Through the centuries, the Shimazu clan was able to maintain power and status despite the emergence of other clans in southern Kyushu and by the time of Shimazu Yoshihisa, the family had become one of the powerful clans in all of Kyushu. In the Treaty of Takamatsu in 1582, the childless Yoshihisa adopted Nobunaga’s 4th son, Katsunaga.1 Katsunaga, who changed his name to Shimazu Nagahisa upon his adoption, became one of the most influential members of the Azuchi government in the early 17th century, often the strongest voice for trade expansionism and facilitating the forging of the Dutch-Japanese alliance. Under him, the Shimazu would also acquire several coastal possessions dotting Bireitou. His grandson, Norihisa, would continue the Shimazu’s new role as the Oda bedrock in Kyushu.
Shimazu Nagahisa (島津長久): 1602-1631 (l. 1561-1631)
Shimazu Norihisa (島津則久): 1631- (l. 1613-)
Shimazu Nagahisa (島津長久): 1602-1631 (l. 1561-1631)
Shimazu Norihisa (島津則久): 1631- (l. 1613-)
Iyo-Saionji clan (伊予西園寺氏)
Portrait of Saionji Kinsada
A cadet branch of the greater Saionji noble family, the Iyo-Saionji clan split off during the Nanboku-cho period and came to control western Iyo province. They continued into the Sengoku period and when its 10th clan head, Kinhiro, was left with no heir, Nobunaga had him adopt one of his younger sons, Nobusada, with Nobusada changing his name to Kinsada. After Kinsada passed away in 1624, his eldest son Kinnori would succeed him.
Saionji Kinsada (西園寺公貞): 1587-1624 (l. 1574-1624)
Saionji Kinnori (西園寺公則): 1624- (l. 1613-)
Saionji Kinsada (西園寺公貞): 1587-1624 (l. 1574-1624)
Saionji Kinnori (西園寺公則): 1624- (l. 1613-)
Wakamatsu and Tarui clans (若松氏, 垂井氏)
The Wakamatsu and Tarui cadet branches of the Oda clan represented the bloodlines of Oda Nobuhide the Younger and Nobutaka, the first two governors of Bireitou. After their early deaths, their sons would be adopted by Oda Tadataka and would succeed him after his death in 1633 while leading Japanese armies in Luzon. Wakamatsu Tadahide (若松忠秀) governed the northern half, Bireizen, while Tarui Norishige (垂井則重) governed the southern half, Bireigo.
Oda Nobuhide (織田信秀): 1571-1597
Wakamatsu Tadahide (若松忠秀): 1591-
Oda Nobutaka (織田信高): 1576-1603
Tarui Norishige (垂井則重): 1602-
Oda Nobuhide (織田信秀): 1571-1597
Wakamatsu Tadahide (若松忠秀): 1591-
Oda Nobutaka (織田信高): 1576-1603
Tarui Norishige (垂井則重): 1602-
Tsuda clan (津田氏)
The Tsuda clan was descended from Nobunaga’s younger brother Nobuyuki. Despite the treacherous behavior of the latter and his murder at the hands of Nobunaga himself, his sons were allowed to live on. His eldest son in particular, Tsuda Nobuzumi, was able to overcome the shame of his father through great feats in battle throughout his life. In 1582, he even served as one of the commanders of Kanbe Nobutaka’s [1] invasion of Shikoku but was killed in battle at the Battle of Kawashima. This unfortunately stagnated the Tsuda clan’s rise in the ranks and his son, Masazumi, remained a minor castle lord at Oomizo Castle (大溝城) in Oumi province. The Iberian-Japanese War, however, provided opportunity and Masazumi was among those who found success on the battlefield, eventually carving out a new domain for the Tsuda clan in Luson province.
Tsuda Nobuzumi (津田信澄): 1555-1582
Tsuda Masazumi (津田昌澄): 1582- (l. 1582-)
Tsuda Nobuzumi (津田信澄): 1555-1582
Tsuda Masazumi (津田昌澄): 1582- (l. 1582-)
Kudou clan (工藤氏)
The progenitor of what became the Kudou cadet branch of the Oda clan was Nobunaga’s younger brother, Oda Nobukane. The latter came to be granted the province of Iga as his domain, from where he emerged as a key player within the Azuchi daijo-fu. He notably was the guardian of Oda Nobunori, who happened to be his great-nephew, and also helped promote the political rise of Saito Yoshioki. After Nobukane’s death in 1614, however, his bloodline would not see anyone else attain such prominent power and would continue on simply as the lords of Iga province, although his grandson Kanetada would serve as the guardian of Oda Nobutsugu after the siege of Gifu.
Oda Nobukane (織田信包): 1546-1614
Oda Kanenaga (織田包長): 1614-1615 (l. 1571-1615)
Kudou Kanetada (工藤包忠): 1615- (l. 1597-)
Oda Nobukane (織田信包): 1546-1614
Oda Kanenaga (織田包長): 1614-1615 (l. 1571-1615)
Kudou Kanetada (工藤包忠): 1615- (l. 1597-)
Urakusai clan (有楽斎氏)
Portrait of Oda Nagamasu
Coined after the Buddhist/tea master name of Oda Nagamasu, the Urakusai clan was granted land in western Izumo province. Under the lordship of Urakusai, the city of Izumo would quickly develop an active tea culture that disseminated down to the commoners but especially among the merchants and retainers [2]. After he retired and passed on the lordship to his senior grandson Naganori (織田長則), he would go on to become Oda Nobutomo’s guardian at Gifu. Some of his sons and retainers would stick around in Gifu, including Hisanaga who would go on to become the guardian of Oda Nobutsugu. As a result, the Urakusai clan was scattered in both Izumo and Mino provinces. In 1631, Naganori’s younger brother Nagaie (有楽斎長家) after the former passed away without any natural sons.
Oda Nagamasu (織田長益): 1547-1622
Oda Naganori (織田長則): 1622-1631 (l. 1602-1631)
Urakusai Nagaie (有楽斎長家): 1631- (l. 1604-)
Musashino clan (武蔵野氏)
Descended from Nobunaga’s youngest brother, Nagatoshi, this line produced the two Kamakura Tandais that ruled over the Kanto region for 54 years from Kamakura. They also possessed landholdings in Shimousa province seized from the Ashikaga rebels in the area. After the deaths of Tandai Toshimasa and his heir Toshihide in the Komyo-ji Incident that kicked off the Furuwatari War, the lordship of the family fell to Toshihide’s son Toshinao who was immediately forced to defend the clan’s territories from the Hojo and their allies. With the support of pro-Azuchi lords and his uncle Tamemasa, he was able to fend off the invasion and contributed to the ultimate defeat of the Hojo clan. Afterwards, the family was given all of Musashi province for strategic purposes in exchange for the redistribution of their lands in Shimousa province to other castle lords and daimyos. From Musashi, the Musashino clan would begin to recover themselves and their new domain from the destruction and destabilization caused by the Furuwatari War.
Oda Nagatoshi (織田長利): 1551-1596
Oda Toshimasa (織田利昌): 1596-1637 (1575-1637)
Musashino Toshinao (武蔵野利直): 1637- (l. 1618- )
Oda Nagatoshi (織田長利): 1551-1596
Oda Toshimasa (織田利昌): 1596-1637 (1575-1637)
Musashino Toshinao (武蔵野利直): 1637- (l. 1618- )
Other branches
Other branches of the Oda clan more distantly related to Nobunaga continued to exist, though they had been forced to discard the family name long ago and existed as relatively minor castle lords. These bloodlines were the remnants of the various Oda branches that controlled various tracts of Owari province prior to its unification by Nobunaga in 1559. Some of these included the Otai clan (小田井氏), who were the castle lords of Otai Castle, (小田井城) and the Iinoo clan (飯尾氏) who held various magistrate positions. Notably, Otai Tomonobu led forces in Luzon during the Iberian-Japanese War but died in battle near Cape Bojeador.
[1]: Miyoshi Nobutaka’s name before his adoption by Miyoshi Yasunaga
[2]: The reverse of OTL, where under Matsudaira Harusato (松平治郷), better known as Fumai (不昧), the neighboring city of Matsue (松江), became a center of tea culture and drinking in the 1700s.
[1]: Miyoshi Nobutaka’s name before his adoption by Miyoshi Yasunaga
[2]: The reverse of OTL, where under Matsudaira Harusato (松平治郷), better known as Fumai (不昧), the neighboring city of Matsue (松江), became a center of tea culture and drinking in the 1700s.
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