Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun

[Quinkana]

Okay but why? What does Armenia gain from starting a rebellion when the Ottomans haven't done anything bad to them? Who would support them for that? Do they go independent or try and become a Russian province?(If Russia wants them in the first place)

As I said it's probably in the late 18th to the 19th centuries where a lot could happen. Muslim riots targeting Christians, the Ottomans treating Christians as subversive elements as the European powers come in, allowing the Kurds to have more privileges, economic policies that harm the Armenians (a lot were traders), more links to the West and more links to nationalism...

There could be a lot of reasons why it can happen in the future. I'm just saying that its a possibility...

Meiji China...?

Scenarios where China successfully modernises and comes into full force as an industrialised state in the early to mid 20th century.

 

[Red Angel]

Scenarios where China successfully modernises and comes into full force as an industrialised state in the early to mid 20th century.

Ah ok, was confused about it.

 

[GameBawesome]

As I said it's probably in the late 18th to the 19th centuries where a lot could happen. Muslim riots targeting Christians, the Ottomans treating Christians as subversive elements as the European powers come in, allowing the Kurds to have more privileges, economic policies that harm the Armenians (a lot were traders), more links to the West and more links to nationalism...

That's the thing though; Will Nationalism even arise? Or at least the way that it did?

ITTL, Europe, Asia and the Americas are so altered, can the American Revolution, therefore the French Revolution & Napoleonic Wars, therefore the rise of Nationalism can even happen at this point? North America is divided into the British colonies with New Netherlands and New Sweden splitting them apart. In Europe, the House of Stuart and House of Vasa are still around at this point. And by the looks of things are going in Iran and India, the latter isn't going to be subjugated by a European company any time soon.

So, with all these changes not just East Asia, but also Europe, India and the Americas, the rise of Nationalism is completely altered, to the point we might not even see it. It also might even impact the industrial revolution as well, since removing India from the British Empire has drastic consequences.

 

[Simeon]

Scenarios where China successfully modernises and comes into full force as an industrialised state in the early to mid 20th century.

Tbf - if the stars do align that the Imperial Chinese government does get its own ass in order, they already have the bureaucracy that that can effectively shuffle its money around - or at least serve as the core core that will organise the expansion of the government.

If; their Confucian ideology and conservatism have made that very bureaucracy tend to lend on corruption and embezzlement instead, so there are much more stars to align there compared to other places.

 

[Quinkana]

That's the thing though; Will Nationalism even arise? Or at least the way that it did?

That's very true. I do think some sort of 'in group out group' dynamic would develop out of language, historical ties and states of the past as the states attempt to define themselves though. It really does depend on how Huntsman wants to do this.

Tbf - if the stars do align that the Imperial Chinese government does get its own ass in order, they already have the bureaucracy that that can effectively shuffle its money around - or at least serve as the core core that will organise the expansion of the government.

If; their Confucian ideology and conservatism have made that very bureaucracy tend to lend on corruption and embezzlement instead, so there are much more stars to align there compared to other places.

Yeah I get why that's the case (other than people wanting to explore the scenario). It's just been done a lot. The Ming rn in otl are already dead, but they've already gone through extensive periods of isolationism with little harm so I don't see why they'll not continue their isolationsism.

At this point the Ming are more likely to slide into isolationism too with the players that're present.

 

[Hohensaufen]

That's the thing though; Will Nationalism even arise? Or at least the way that it did?

ITTL, Europe, Asia and the Americas are so altered, can the American Revolution, therefore the French Revolution & Napoleonic Wars, therefore the rise of Nationalism can even happen at this point? North America is divided into the British colonies with New Netherlands and New Sweden splitting them apart. In Europe, the House of Stuart and House of Vasa are still around at this point. And by the looks of things are going in Iran and India, the latter isn't going to be subjugated by a European company any time soon.

So, with all these changes not just East Asia, but also Europe, India and the Americas, the rise of Nationalism is completely altered, to the point we might not even see it. It also might even impact the industrial revolution as well, since removing India from the British Empire has drastic consequences.

Yeah, given that many of the OTL catalysts for Nationalism are likely so altered beyond recognition that it is conceivable that nationalism will not arise in the shape it did IOTL. However, the complete absence of nationalism seems difficult to justify given that language is just too powerful a unifier (think of media, ease of business and a common understanding of law as three points that are heavily linked to language) to prevent the people from reaching the "logical" conclusion of a nation state.

As a Rhinelander, I could not care less what nation the city of my birth belongs to







as long as it's not the French.

 

[GameBawesome]

So, a minor question popped up in my head, while rereading some sections for the Church of Yamato. Thinking back, I think there was brief discussion about traditional Japanese clothing being used for the Church of Yamato.

However, I did discover that Jesuits did briefly once orange silk robes similar to that of Buddhist monks in order to accustom the locals. It was only later that more conservative Jesuits arrived, who ended the practice and enforced the black Cassock.

Do you think that it'd be possibly for the Church of Yamato to readopt that practice now, to appeal to more converts? Or another Christian sect like 'Salvationism', since it's already a hybrid of Yamato Christian and Buddhist values?

 

[conman15]

One thing I'm wondering is what kinda new dialects/culture will develop in the colonies Ala creole

 

[Simeon]

I wonder whether the guitar has already arrived to Japan to make bangers like this:

 

[Quinkana]

Yeah, given that many of the OTL catalysts for Nationalism are likely so altered beyond recognition that it is conceivable that nationalism will not arise in the shape it did IOTL. However, the complete absence of nationalism seems difficult to justify given that language is just too powerful a unifier (think of media, ease of business and a common understanding of law as three points that are heavily linked to language) to prevent the people from reaching the "logical" conclusion of a nation state.

Yeah I agree with this. Even maybe the concept may be more lenient (if you speak said language you're one of us even if you don't look like us) but nationalist ideas are present long before the modern nation-state is present.

There's a reason why both the Chinese and Japanese did some sort of settler colonialism before the modern era even though they're not nation-states.

As a Rhinelander, I could not care less what nation the city of my birth belongs to

As long as it's not the French.

What if the Dutch control the Rhineland? Or even England? Lol

However, I did discover that Jesuits did briefly once orange silk robes similar to that of Buddhist monks in order to accustom the locals. It was only later that more conservative Jesuits arrived, who ended the practice and enforced the black Cassock.

Do you think that it'd be possibly for the Church of Yamato to readopt that practice now, to appeal to more converts? Or another Christian sect like 'Salvationism', since it's already a hybrid of Yamato Christian and Buddhist values?

I think it makes sense for the yamato church to go back to a more Buddhist-esque look. Maybe we see both depending on the circumstances, but I do feel church wear will become Japanised as time goes by. Even if they keep stuff like the black cassok.

I don't think salvationism would replace the other faiths, but it'd definitely regionalise the faiths. Add to stuff like ikki Buddhism and you've a recipe for interesting relations in Japan. Maybe Honshu would be majority salvationist, but then the other islands have majorities with other religions.

One thing I'm wondering is what kinda new dialects/culture will develop in the colonies Ala creole

Probably some sort of ilocano or ibanag mix with japanese. With how things are I hope we see the ibanags be more populus ittl.

 

[Hohensaufen]

What if the Dutch control the Rhineland? Or even England? Lol

They're not french so I'm cool with either 😎 (Dutch more so tho)

 

[Ambassador Huntsman]

I think there's still a lot of unknowns for that to be the case either. Frankly the Ottomans fallling is otl and considering their model of ruling it only takes a bad sultan or two in a critical period to seriously fuck over the empire. I'm just saying that it's a bigger possibility (but I don't see huntsman going that direction either?) and I'm extrapolating out of a weakened Ottoman empire where the Europeans want to extract their pound of flesh.

I just think there's also a lot more to explore from other scenarios such as an earlier and more concerted Armenian uprising for example. I've seen Ottoman Empire survival tls done to death and I'm frankly bored of surviving Ottoman empire stuff as a result. tbf same for meiji China. Of course that's my personal preference and why I don't want to see it happen.

Meiji China...?

Scenarios where China successfully modernises and comes into full force as an industrialised state in the early to mid 20th century.

Nah @Quinkana has correctly predicted the ascension of a Chinese emperor named Meiji all the way forward in 1868.

So, a minor question popped up in my head, while rereading some sections for the Church of Yamato. Thinking back, I think there was brief discussion about traditional Japanese clothing being used for the Church of Yamato.

However, I did discover that Jesuits did briefly once orange silk robes similar to that of Buddhist monks in order to accustom the locals. It was only later that more conservative Jesuits arrived, who ended the practice and enforced the black Cassock.

Do you think that it'd be possibly for the Church of Yamato to readopt that practice now, to appeal to more converts? Or another Christian sect like 'Salvationism', since it's already a hybrid of Yamato Christian and Buddhist values?

The priests of the Church of Yamato will continue to wear black robes.

One thing I'm wondering is what kinda new dialects/culture will develop in the colonies Ala creole

There's a degree of admixture in Bireito, mostly with male samurai as well as select marriages between the Japanese and prominent Chinese and aboriginal families. A Bireitoan-Japanese dialect is developing mostly as a cross between various western and central Japanese dialects. I covered a bit back in Chapter 122.

I wonder whether the guitar have already arrived to Japan to make bangers like this:

Not yet.

Probably some sort of ilocano or ibanag mix with japanese. With how things are I hope we see the ibanags be more populus ittl.

As of now, there's much higher racial segregation and stratification in Luson compared to say Bireito.

 

[Quinkana]

They're not french so I'm cool with either 😎 (Dutch more so tho)

Based 😎

Nah @Quinkana has correctly predicted the ascension of a Chinese emperor named Meiji all the way forward in 1868.

Am I... a time traveller?

tbf mingzhi is not a bad name to pick up for a Chinese emperor though.

No tease on how china ends up? sadge.

As of now, there's much higher racial segregation and stratification in Luson compared to say Bireito.

Yeah that makes sense, I do think there'd still be admixture starting to happen as the lower classes would probably get some sort of Japanese exposure. And trading should either be done with a creole or Japanese due to Japanese mercantile dominance.

 

[Simeon]

Not yet.

I found it dubious that Japan imported a whole-ass harpsichord but not something as small as a Spanish guitar.

 

[GameBawesome]

I found it dubious that Japan imported a whole-ass harpsichord but not something as small as a Spanish guitar.

To be fair, Spanish-Japanese relations hasn’t been … that great for the entire century to say the less.

Maybe it’ll change after this war

 

[Ambassador Huntsman]

I found it dubious that Japan imported a whole-ass harpsichord but not something as small as a Spanish guitar.

It’s been imported and tried out but hasn’t caught on due to the rise of shamisen and the staying power of pre-existing Japanese string instruments as well as other Asian ones. The harpsichord caught on because it was so unique and different.

To be fair, Spanish-Japanese relations hasn’t been … that great for the entire century to say the less.

Maybe it’ll change after this war

Tbf they had been thawing bit by bit since the Luzon War in the 1660s especially as Spanish global power waned overall.

 

[Dragonboy]

It’s been imported and tried out but hasn’t caught on due to the rise of shamisen and the staying power of pre-existing Japanese string instruments as well as other Asian ones. The harpsichord caught on because it was so unique and different.

Cool! And we will see more influence in the foods too?

 

[Quinkana]

It’s been imported and tried out but hasn’t caught on due to the rise of shamisen and the staying power of pre-existing Japanese string instruments as well as other Asian ones. The harpsichord caught on because it was so unique and different.

Speaking of the shamisen will we see them in Europe? The shamisen would have a very exotic sound that would allow it to spread into European courts.

Also when would we see shamisen be played with a bow?

 

[Ambassador Huntsman]

Cool! And we will see more influence in the foods too?

Yes.

Speaking of the shamisen will we see them in Europe? The shamisen would have a very exotic sound that would allow it to spread into European courts.

Also when would we see shamisen be played with a bow?

Exotic Japanese goods are floating around in noble courts at this time but this might be more something to write out in an upcoming chapter. Certainly the importation of tea culture to Europe (France especially ITTL) will be covered in the near future.

 

[Dragonboy]

Yes.

Awesome! Japanese food is great, and more of a foreign influence would make it better! Can you imagine spanish/portoguese flavors on ramen?