Nobody Expects: The Spanish Revolution

Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by Onerom, Aug 2, 2019.

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  1. Blacklister3000 Libertarian of sorts

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    What are the GDPs and GDPs per capita of Brazil, Spain and Portugal (With Angola and Mozambique)? In terms of GDP, what are the rankings of Brazil, Spain and Portugal?
     
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  2. Onerom Orchard Lord

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    The Spanish GDP is $2.079 trillion (13th), or $38,738 per capita; it is included in Spain's wikipage back in page 1.

    Brazil is a poorer country compared to OTL, with a total GDP around $1.350 trillion and around $7.000 per capita; Portugal's total GDP stands around $525 billion with a per capita of around $10.500. As for the exact ranks, I don't want to give now one and later when I sit down to carefully display every country find that it doesn't suit me, so for now I can't peovide them.

    Keep in mind that statistics of countries with colonial holdings consolidated into the metropole (i.e. Portugal, France, Italy...) are misleading, as the average Portuguese would enjoy a higher standing of living while population in colonies drags the statistic down (and the reverse, most Angolans are below the national average).
     
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  3. TheKutKu Well-Known Member

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    How many Europeans live in Angola and Mozambique?

    You said that less Italians went to Argentina, where did they go in large part? Stayed in Italy (is the south wealthier?)? Went to Brazil more, america more, Italian North Africa?
     
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  4. Onerom Orchard Lord

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    Official data of the Portuguese Republic put the number of white Angolans (angolenhos brancos) at around 3.5 million people out of a total population of 30 million, but a fair amount of those (estimates range from 25 to 35%) have significant native recent ancestry and would be better described as mestiços, although they identify with the European community. A significant amount of them also descends from white Brazilian immigrants, as the region as been growing economically at an accelerated pace since the late 90s. White Mozambiqueans number around 1.5 million of a total of 28 million, being further from Portugal and Brazil.

    The Great War cut emigration from Italy (and Germany, France and Eastern Europe) to the New World from 1906 to 1910, and when it resumed the larger influx (in the context of a huge migratory wave in Southern-Eastern Europe) caused much concern in receptor societies in the US and Argentina, thus the US 1914 Immigration Act that restricted Italian immigration from an average of 350.000 yearly in the period 1910-1914 to just 10.000. Unable to go to the US, many attempted to go for Argentina, where Spanish immigration as a result of the Revolution of 1913 had also peaked, and restrictions were put in place in 1916. The acquisition of Tunisia from France by the Treaty of Geneva was a scape valve to aleviate the pressure, but incapable of absorbing all the wave, it was a decisive factor that pushed Italy to intervene in the Second Balkan War to secure Albania and Tripolitania (present Libya) from the Ottoman Empire.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
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  5. Gabingston Well-Known Member

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    Italian immigration to Brazil?
     
  6. Onerom Orchard Lord

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    Political instability made emigration to Brazil unattractive in the 1900s and 1910s; there was Italian emigration there, but smaller than IOTL.
     
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  7. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    I like this timeline, and I'll follow it more closely.

    As I am German, I want to know a lot more about Germany:
    • What parties do they have?
    • Can I maybe even assist you in German politics?
    • Is it a monarchy or a republic?
    • What status does this "Polish Autonomous Republic/District" have?
    • What are the foreign relations of Germany like, especially the relations to the Hispanosphere?
    • What is Austria-Czechia/Austria-Bohemia like?
    Also, could I use your borders (and maybe the colour) of China for our collaborative timeline which is in my signature?
     
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  8. Onerom Orchard Lord

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    Thank you very much!

    There are multiple parties represented in the Reichstag, the most important being the Social Democratic Party (SPD, Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands), the Centre Party (DZP, Deutsche Zentrumspartei or just Zentrum even in English), the Conservative Party (DkP, Deutschkonservative Partei), the National Liberal Party (NLP, Nationalliberale Partei), the Democratic Party (DDP, Deutsche Demokratische Partei) and the Worker's Party (DAP, Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, has nothing in common with OTL short-lived and preNazi DAP). Minor parties include the Polish Party (PP, Polnische Partei), the Bavarian People's Party (BVP, Bayerische Volkspartei, alligned with the Zentrum but independent and Bavarian-centered) and the pangermanist German National Party (DnP, Deutschnationale Partei).

    My idea is this to be a personal TL, but I am of course open to consider suggestions by DM, and if I need help in the German area (I do not speak a word of German aside Blitzkrieg XD) I would be glad if you could help me. At this stage, German politics are not developed in depth, I have in my head the broad framework and how I want them to be more or less, but I'll focus little on the 'present day' until the TL is more set and developed.

    The Reich is a federal parliamentary monarchy headed by the German Emperor, a title hereditary on the House of Hohenzollern who also rule as Kings of Prussia, which is the largest of the 28 federal states of Germany.

    The Grand Duchy of Posen (officially in Polish Wielkie Księstwo Poznańskie, common in German and English as Posen) is another one the federal states, segregated from the Kingdom of Prussia in the later half of the 20th century. The main difference with other states is that, since Poles are a majority, the Grand Duchy conducts the administration and public education mostly exclusively in Polish and there are safegards in both the Imperial and the Ducal constitutions that protect the Polish character of the state. The German/Protestant minority is very segregated from the Polish/Catholic majority, and has set up its own private institutions protected by the Imperial constitution.

    Except for France and Russia, for evident reasons, and Poland (German-Polish relations are complicated and I'll go further in the future, don't worry if I leave it vague), Germany mantains good relations with most of her European neighbours, being the largest economy and having important comercial relationships with countries in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe.

    With the UK and the US relations aren't bad, it's no Cold War-analogue: the perception among the three is that the other two are rivals but not necessary enemies, and can support or oppose one or the other depending the circumstance. Germany and the UK resent American influence in the Caribbean and Central-Norther South America; Germany and the US resent British influence in the Southern Cone and Southern Africa; and the US and the UK resent Germany influence in Europe.

    With Russia relations can be quite strained due to her sense of being barred from Europe by Germany, but the consensus is to try and reapproach Russia. Japan, on the other hand, has quite warm relations with Germany due to its involvement in the pacific being minimal, contrary to the UK and US. German influence in the Hispanosphere pales compared to the anglo powers as I said, but Spain has been growing closer to Germany since the later half of the 20th century and it is hoped it can become the German gate to South America.

    The Habsburg Monarchy (commonly referred as Austria-Bohemia or Austro-Bohemian Monarchy) is a federal state composed of a real union between the Empire of Austria (do not mention the ridiculousness of calling it an 'Empire') and the Lands of the Bohemian Crown. It works (or begun to work at it's inception) as an extension of the Ausgleich to Bohemia during the Austrian Crisis of 1948, and with just three nationalities (German-Austrians and Bohemians, Slovene-Austrians and Czech-Bohemians) it's much more manageable. In many ways it resembles a miniature and wholly Catholic version of Germany, but ethnic relations are less strained than in Posen.

    There ain't no such thing as copyright. Of course you can, I have used QBAMs uploaded to this forum by other people to help myself with the borders.
     
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  9. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    What is the largest immigrant group in Germany?

    Also, is there any EU/European community analogue?
     
  10. Red Arturoist Napoleon II. - Marxist-Arturoist-Trałkaist Donor

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    I assume that Deutsche Arbeiterpartei is left-wing or even far-left. Much like Die Linke?

    What are the differences between DZP/Zentrum and DKP?
    Also, are there notable environmentalist parties? What is the status of environmentalism, protection of the environment, and climate change? Are there any notable heads of government denying climate change?

    I can help out with all German translations.
     
  11. Blacklister3000 Libertarian of sorts

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    I was thinking about an apartheid Angola/Mozambique under Portuguese rule, is that true in this timeline, where natives and mixed-race citizens are treated as second-class to whites?
     
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  12. Scerus Stanley Baldwin's neatly polished shoes

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    That place next to Australia
    Also, what is technology like in this world?
     
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  13. Gabzcervo Timeline raises FAQs

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    What Space Race would look like in the TTL World?
     
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  14. Onerom Orchard Lord

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    Slavs in general (not counting autochthonous Sorbs and Poles) and Ukrainians in particular. There are also important amounts of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe and their descendents.

    No, there's an economic union and free trade area in Central-Eastern Europe but without any objectives of political union nor integration.

    They are the party most to the left, merging democratic socialism, syndicalism, communism, some strains of revolutionary marxism. They compete with the SPD for the worker and proletarian vote, and are much more radical.

    The divide between Catholics and Protestants is wide in TTL Germany even in 2019, and so they have mantained separate parties. The Zentrum is also more willing to cooperate with the SPD in economic areas, while the DkP is more strictly a right party. Both have participated in coalitions together in the imperial government, but in Prussia they are strongly antagonistic.

    No, there's no party built around environmental issues because they are mostly integrated in the traditional parties, both right and left wings have (for different reasons) supporters and detractors of environmentalism. Anthropogenic climate alteration is generally acknowledged and the main point of contention is usually the tradeoff of determinated measures.

    They are not officially second-class citizens to the state, although it is inevitable that such informal hierarchy arises from the frames of colonialism. Native Africans experience from ethnic Protuguese and Mestiços a similar treatment many OTL African Americans suffer from White Americans: officially equal but great leaps would need to be taken to materialise it.

    Depends on the field, generally from 5 to 15 years behind us (mostly in technologies born out of OTL WW2/Cold War), although in certain areas like Medicine it is slightly ahead.

    Space exploration didn't take the form of a race except in very specific moments among people working on the projects, but never really extended to the public. It began in the 60s but due to the lack of ideological confrontation between blocks it wasn't as strongly financed. Moon landing capabilities were achieved in the late 70s, but there was no real reason to do it and no human has set a foot there ITTL.
     
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  15. Scerus Stanley Baldwin's neatly polished shoes

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    All points are interesting another I'd like to direct my next question is regarding computer technology.

    Given wikiboxes generally are created to reflect ITTL's I was wondering whether wikipedia and, the internet in particular, are the same as OTL or further ahead.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  16. Onerom Orchard Lord

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    No, Internet is slightly less developed than IOTL, by around 5 years, it followed mostly the same process but given the lack of ideological Cold War (and butterflies) it advanced at a different pace. It could have been the contrary, but since I don't know much about computing I prefer it to be behind us so I have information instead of attempting to discern how it could be with zero idea.

    Wikipedia I must admit is an artistic license. A similar analogue would surely be developed ITTL, but the probability of it being called 'Wikipedia' and functioning identically in a world that diverged 200 years ago is null. I consider the articles posted here as a 'translation' of something that doesn't exist IOTL so that we are familiar with it, but ITL they wouldn't be seen like here. Either that, or Wikipedia is an interdimensional database that resonates across the multiverse allowing informational exchange between wikiverses XD
     
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  17. TheKutKu Well-Known Member

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    I have a few questions about Africa

    What is this outline on the map around the equatorial Africans countries? Are they french puppet or are they free? If they are under french control what difference do they have compared to the directly controlled West Africa?

    Are there any established or rising “native” power in subsaharian Africa? How are Nigeria, Tanzania and Ethiopia?

    What are the relations between the indépendant countries of Africa and colonising ones, are there economic unions between independant ones to avoid being dependant on France/Italy/Portugal.

    Which non African powers have been funding rebel groups in colonies? Do countries like Ethiopia fund rebel groups in say, Italian Africa?

    Angola and Mozambique’s location likely means Portugal trades a lot with the segregationist regime of Transvaal and Rhodesia, is it correct? And how do they justify it and the international community/other european countries react to it?

    Thanks for your answers
     
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  18. Onerom Orchard Lord

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    The outline represents the memebers of the Central African Partnership (Zentralafrikanische Partnerschaft, informally ZentrAf), an economic, monetary and political union of former German colonies in Central Africa. They are sovereign countries and very opposed to France, one of the main aims of the ZentrAf is indeed to preserve the independence of native African states and help the ones who haven't achieved independence yet.

    Ethipia is the beacon of Africa, a country that managed to repell Western colonization and modernize itself, considered by many a potential Great Power.

    Nigeria is also successful, benefitting from a more ordained process of independence, but has to manage the problem of West African refugees and is torn between the desire of integrating in the ZentrAf and mantaining the ties to the UK.

    Botswana needs to be mentioned too, it is a small but very successful country with life standards comparable to Europe.

    Some Congolese city-states can also be considered successful once you get used to the anarchocapitalist dieselpunk dystopy vibe...

    The ZentrAf is the only of such unions, while individual independent countries establish bilateral agreements, and relations vary. All native countries condemn the French position, while British and Portuguese Africa are overlooked by the countries in the sphere of the UK. Italy does not meddle much in Africa beyond the Quarta Sponda since the Ethiopians gave them a bloody nose in the 60s.

    Americans and Germans partnered in the 80s to try to covertly overthrow the British backed Afrikaner Republics. Needless to say it was a disaster that catalyzed the tranaformation of the SAR into the current dystopian totalitarian hellhole. It was partially a response to the support of the UK to African independentists in Mittelafrika in the 70s. Nowadays, the Great Powers tacitly agree to mantain their respective spheres to avoid those bloody years.

    Ethiopia did support anticolonialists in Italian East African in the 50s and 60s, but they do not have much interest in the Quarta Sponda.

    Laurenço Marques is virtually their outlet to the sea. In later years it is becoming more difficult to justify, but then again many countries have their own skeletons in ther closets, and there's no international equivalent of the United Nations nor the Declaration of Human Rights ITTL, and certainly many Europeans consider justified colonization in both 'civilizatory' and extractive grounds.
     
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  19. Threadmarks: El País, 19/9/19: Spain headed for fourth election

    Onerom Orchard Lord

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  20. Threadmarks: United States Presidential Election, 1848

    Onerom Orchard Lord

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    [​IMG]

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    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
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