No WWII: Effect on Aircraft Carriers?

Just wondering people's opinions; If we avoid a *WW2 conflict with major naval action, so basically no Taranto, no Pearl Harbour (Pacific War in general), how much does this retard the rise of the Aircraft Carrier?

CVs were present in most of the major navies of the time but it took these two actions to really drive home their possible effectiveness. How much were CVs undervalued at the time?

Would a peaceful 1940s see battleships remain as the centre of fleets for years to come? After all the Battle of Lissa in 1866 influenced many fleets to consider ramming a legitimate tactic until the Russo-Japanese War allowed refresh.

Would it take until a major naval war for the battleship to lose primacy? Without 'practical experience' could they remain into the 21st century?
 

NothingNow

Banned
Just wondering people's opinions; If we avoid a *WW2 conflict with major naval action, so basically no Taranto, no Pearl Harbour (Pacific War in general), how much does this retard the rise of the Aircraft Carrier?
By 5-10 years at most.

CVs were present in most of the major navies of the time but it took these two actions to really drive home their possible effectiveness. How much were CVs undervalued at the time?
They weren't. The IJN, USN and RN were all very aware of how important Carriers were in the late 30's, and all figured on their battle-line being obsolete within a couple decades. Said Battle-line in most navies was already to slow to effectively operate with the Carrier groups (as a fleet Carrier could comfortably cruise at 20-23kts, while most BBs world wide could cruise at about 15kts.)

Which is why modern Battleships were built to be faster (capable of 26-30kts was the norm) and have a much stronger AA armament, as they were intended as much to protect a carrier group from enemy aircraft as they were to actually sink another battleship.

Would a peaceful 1940s see battleships remain as the centre of fleets for years to come?
Nope.
The Battle-line would've remained important, but not necessarily critical. Mostly to handle other BBs, serve as convoy escorts (to ward off surface raiders,) for fire-support, and as flagships where a Carrier wouldn't be appropriate.

Would it take until a major naval war for the battleship to lose primacy? Without 'practical experience' could they remain into the 21st century?
Nope. It'd take till the early 50's at the latest. Carrier aircraft could already out-range a battleship's main armament, and deliver a heavier payload with more accuracy in the late 30's. With the TBF, SB2C, and other 40's naval aircraft the superiority and flexibility of a carrier group was pretty obvious.

You might still see some Fast Battleships built that are pretty much just made to be floating platforms for heavier guns than a cruiser would support, for use in Fire-support, and as extremely tough AA platforms, but they wouldn't be the center of a fleet by any means.
If they last into the late 20th century with new designs being built, they'd probably end up developing into 40kt vessels with 6-9 16" guns and a really heavy armament of SAMs and radar directed AA guns for most uses. Probably with a maximum of 400-650mm of armor in certain places, like over machinery, the main battery, Bridge/CIC and the magazines, and a really solid DC layout. They'd probably also be nuclear powered (if their carriers are,) and have an expected service life of like 30-60 years as well.
Hell, they'd probably be designed to be paired with a specific class of carrier as well, and share much of their machinery with the partner class.

EDIT: I'm also thinking BB displacement might max out at ~80,000tonnes, which is about 10% more then a Yamato-class or Montana-class would displace at full load, and top out at 270-300m long, with the crews reaching maybe 2500 post war (which was about what a Montana would have,) once they're fitted with auto-loading DP guns for the secondary/AA armament, and surface to air missiles, with the move to modern CIWS systems really being responsible for the reduction in the gun crews, while DC crews absorb most of the change.
 
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WWII was not just a crucible which established the primacy of the aircraft carrier; It was the era during which the carrier's primary weapons matured. Aircraft became more capable, engines stronger, and weapons more powerful. The war just gave irrefutable evidence of a changing balance to those who may have been reluctant to accept change.
 
It also depends on how plausible a POD is that can achieve a "no-WWII" situation.

I think the key would be, prevent Germany from going authoritarian, militaristic and revanchist. If we can imagine the Weimar system somehow muddling through the crisis of the early Depression years without being taken over by the factions that led the Third Reich OTL, then Europe will remain at peace; Mussolini alone won't dare rock the boat too much in a Europe with no one to counterbalance the power of the Entente leading powers, France and Britain.

And perhaps this alone is almost enough to keep Japan from daring to get too adventurous in China, thus heading off the Pacific theater of the OTL war. Not quite, I'd think the European powers would have to assert themselves, presumably via the League of Nations, to deter Japan's militarists. Perhaps the long-standing alliance of Japan with Great Britain continues, and the intervention takes the form of Britain leading the League to make economic concessions that win over certain factions in Japan and forestall the takeover by militaristic elements.

In such a world there would indeed still be one obvious threat that the other powers would arm against--the Soviet Union. What I have here might essentially be called a "Liberalwank." In a Liberalwank world, I don't believe Stalin's regime would have necessarily been a lot different from OTL until 1939; at that point the change is, no change--there is no alliance with the Nazis to partition Poland and Eastern Europe generally, then no attack by Germany, hence no Great Patriotic War.

Would Stalin start a war himself? I think not, because he was of two minds, or one paranoid and schizophrenic mind, about using the Red Army to spread revolution from one country to the others. I believe that he did believe it was his duty and fate to do that, and accordingly his Five Year Plans leaned very heavily on military development. He would indeed have some serious intent to use these forces someday in the near future. The paranoia and schizophrenia came in when he considered that for a Soviet army to have the force and competence to prevail against the combined power of the capitalist nations, he'd need to raise up generals who would also be competent to overthrow himself. Accordingly, OTL and here, he'd assemble such forces, only to decapitate them by purging them.

He'd never get around to actually launching the war.

Eventually he'd die, of course, and I can imagine that without the transformations the Soviet system and his own cult of personality underwent in the Great Patriotic War, he might be killed off earlier. This might lead to the collapse of the USSR, but I think more likely something analogous to what happened OTL--there is a power struggle and a game of musical chairs in the Kremlin but what emerges is a coalition of survivors of the Stalin years determined never again to let one of their number take supreme power in that way. The gray apparatchik regime this implies would essentially continue Stalin's military policies--prepare for war at a pessimistic fever pitch, but enjoy peace as long as they gloomily hope they can.
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Now that I've outlined how a non-WWII world might exist, I think maybe it could last without any great wars indefinitely. The main reason it wouldn't would be if our OTL experience with the big war, including of course the nuclear balance of terror that emerged postwar, has a big bearing on why other conflicts than the leading ones of WWII have not blown up into big wars themselves. We've had no great wars since WWII but a whole lot of violence has happened anyway; without the lessons of that war and the postwar bipolar East/West Cold War prevented from spinning into an open hot war by the nuclear balance of terror, wouldn't there be major conflicts in places like China eventually leading to another Great War anyway?

Maybe not, if the POD miracles I've described are achieved by Britain and France taking the League of Nations seriously and developing League power to an effective "stick" counterbalanced by serious diplomatic "carrots" to defuse these conflicts and mediate satisfactory peace. Obviously the crises of colonialism in my view anyway pose a major challenge; the anticolonial movements would I think still gain momentum and to prevent this great crisis from breaking down into civil war within the British and French empires (and smaller powers like the Netherlands also would have their crises that might trigger ruptures in the big ones) the diplomacy of the Entente powers would have to be visionary and magnanimous.

If this desirable outcome could be attained, would it mean a general and universal disarmament that would make the whole question of the composition of nonexistent naval fleets moot? Probably not. If sentiment and economic stringency in the League and other Western powers urge disarmament, I'm sure that Stalin would agree--verbally and in principle. The trouble is, there's no way he and his successors would agree to allow meaningfully comprehensive inspections of the reaches of the USSR to verify Soviet compliance, no matter how fair and generously reciprocal the Western powers are in allowing Soviet inspectors the same freedom in the West. There would be enough skepticism of Soviet sincerity in the West to prevent such sweeping proposals from being made seriously, so everyone would tend to remain armed.

But I do think there would be a gradual build-down, or rather, the sizes of military forces, naval ones in particular, would be in fact capped. Serious downsizing would require trust in treaties and universal compliance, but simply assuming that the forces deemed adequate in past generations will continue to be adequate in the future would set the sizes of forces.

So--for aircraft carriers to take over as the capital ships, other types of capital ships, ie battleships, would have to be scrapped. I suspect this would happen very slowly and only to a limited extent.

The positive value of carriers was indeed apparent; the idea that fleets might do without battlewagons completely however would not have been demonstrated; indeed battleships did have their uses in OTL WWII and have been used or considered for use a few times since, as heavy artillery platforms.

The navies might gradually replace many or most of their battleships with carriers, but they would balk at eliminating the last handful of battleships. With naval construction budgets limited and fleet sizes capped at traditional levels, the development of AC tactics and strategy in war games would be slowed. Not stopped, but much delayed.
 
I think in terms of technology the development of aircraft carriers would hardly be retarded at all. All three principal navies involved in the development of carrier aviation (GB, US, Japan) had independently come to understand that aircraft carriers could have a significant - and potentially decisive - role as offensive weapons. Large fleet carriers carrying massive numbers of high-performance warplanes would still be among the core ships in the fleet, considered as significant as battleships.

Doctrinally and tactically, however, there is a good chance that, without a war (and especially the Pacific War that matched two navies with effective naval aviation which proved capable of defeating an enemy without surface engagements at all), the obsolecence of the battleship and battleline tactics might not be appreciated for quite a while - especially by those major navies that had invested heavily in battleships. Although I realize there is no evidence this would occur, it might be left to those nations without large battlefleets (Germany, France, even Italy) that might decide to put their eggs in the aircraft carrier basket and develop more modern naval aviation doctrine capable of countering their enemy's advantage in battleships.
 
It's hard to tell what would happen

Without a war to reveal faults doctrines that seem ludicrous sometimes are accepted

For instance if WWII does not occur, and Radar directed gunnery and the VT fuse still appear on time, the idea that aircraft cannot survive attacking an alerted and modern battleline may take hold

Or you may get essentially OTL, it all depends on intraservice budget battles and the like
 
I think in terms of technology the development of aircraft carriers would hardly be retarded at all. All three principal navies involved in the development of carrier aviation (GB, US, Japan) had independently come to understand that aircraft carriers could have a significant - and potentially decisive - role as offensive weapons. Large fleet carriers carrying massive numbers of high-performance warplanes would still be among the core ships in the fleet, considered as significant as battleships.

Doctrinally and tactically, however, there is a good chance that, without a war (and especially the Pacific War that matched two navies with effective naval aviation which proved capable of defeating an enemy without surface engagements at all), the obsolecence of the battleship and battleline tactics might not be appreciated for quite a while - especially by those major navies that had invested heavily in battleships. Although I realize there is no evidence this would occur, it might be left to those nations without large battlefleets (Germany, France, even Italy) that might decide to put their eggs in the aircraft carrier basket and develop more modern naval aviation doctrine capable of countering their enemy's advantage in battleships.

What could be delayed is the spread of carriers to smaller navies with absence of the British Light Fleet Carriers. Without them available would Australia, Agentina, Brazil, Canada, India or the Netherlands have gone into carriers? Without the USS Cabot would Spain?
 
It's hard to tell what would happen

Without a war to reveal faults doctrines that seem ludicrous sometimes are accepted

For instance if WWII does not occur, and Radar directed gunnery and the VT fuse still appear on time, the idea that aircraft cannot survive attacking an alerted and modern battleline may take hold

Or you may get essentially OTL, it all depends on intraservice budget battles and the like

I think that's probably unlikely; the RN at any rate was uncomfortably aware how poor its heavy AA gunnery was.
Exectly when carriers become the fleet core will depend on how fast planes develop without a war. Probably slower, so the BB gets another generation, but thats probably about it.
Perhaps the more interesting question is, if aircraft development is delayed, will missile development be delayed as much. There is a potential for carriers being limited in favour of missile platforms, given developments in the right order. Not likely, I feel, but possible.
 
Depending on how and when the war is averted, the various navy powers don't realise quite how overwhelming the advantages of the carrier are, but they will have more time to test things and work on prototypes.
 
Battleships qua battleships are dinosaurs for two reasons.

Once nuclear weapons appear, armor is no protection. And once *cruise missiles, let alone a/c, develop enough, a destroyer-sized ship can outrange the heavy guns. How soon that happens is another question. (Unabashed plug.:p)
 
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Until Taranto, Pearl Harbor, and the loss of Repulse and Prince of Wales most naval 'experts' believe it was impossible for a battleship to be sunk by planes. The fact that the Yamato and Bismark were both built shows that navies were still fixated on the Battleship, and believed they were more powerful than carriers. The fact Churchill sent Repulse and Prince of Wales without air cover into waters controlled by Japanese land based air is another example of the belief that moving battleships could not be sunk from the air.

And this happened AFTER the BRITISH raid on Taranto.

Most militaries are inherently conservative. They have faith in the weapons and tactics that have already proved themselves. They tend to not change their minds until they had several lessons. See the US Civil War in regards to the rifled musket or World War One to the machine gun. French knights mocked the longbow and nineteenth century admirals sneered at steam power and armored hulls.

No world war two and no capital ships suck from the air means battleships remain the heart of the fleet. Carriers are support ships and remain so until there is a war where planes sink battleships and cruisers.
 
Oh carriers won't be just support vessels, Taranto says as much, they will see service independent of battleships as raiders.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Battleships qua battleships are dinosaurs for two reasons.

Once nuclear weapons appear, armor is no protection.

Only at point blank ranges. A BB could still survive an airburst or two nearby without much trouble given proper NBC systems.
The Prinze Eugen, New York and Nevada managed to survive both the Able and Baker shots after all. They were seriously irradiated, but still probably could've been decontaminated with cold-war era methods, and adequate preventative measures as were fitted to the rest of the fleet post-Crossroads.

Hell, the Nagato rode out Able, less than a thousand yards from ground zero, with minimal new damage (she was in pretty sorry shape before the tests after all,) although Baker finally did her in.

Oh carriers won't be just support vessels, Taranto says as much, they will see service independent of battleships as raiders.

You never operate a carrier alone. A Battleship can easily operate alone, but a CV always needs a Destroyer squadron, and ideally a pair of Cruisers as escorts, as they lack the armor, and firepower to adequately defend themselves while engaged in offensive operations.
 
You never operate a carrier alone. A Battleship can easily operate alone, but a CV always needs a Destroyer squadron, and ideally a pair of Cruisers as escorts, as they lack the armor, and firepower to adequately defend themselves while engaged in offensive operations.
Sorry, where did I say the carriers would be operating alone? I didn't.

Operating battleships without destroyer escorts isn't a smart move either.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Or you may get essentially OTL, it all depends on intraservice budget battles and the like

Agreed. This is the big one. We can tell from OTL what types of items are likely to work, but without a full TL it is impossible to say exactly what will be funded. In WW2, carrier aviation had unlimited budgets (by peacetime standards) to work out the issues. It is easy to write a TL that you move up (or more often delay) one technology over another by 20 or so years. So in addition to VT fuses mentioned, we could also see heavy work into early SAM systems. We could also see very low funding levels for carriers in the USN compared to OTL. Or we could see multiple navies still around with carriers and even more advanced ships than OTL. It all depends on what one believes the admirals and politicians of Japan, USA, and UK decide. And to a lesser extent Germany, Italy, France and other secondary navies.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Sorry, where did I say the carriers would be operating alone? I didn't.
I do think I miss read what you had posted. Although attempting to use a carrier group for commerce raiding seems a bit odd. For launching strikes on Enemy infrastructure, it's certainly sound, but straight up commerce raiding would seem to involve too much investment for too little return.

Especially since a BB/BC and Cruiser hunting pair could generally smash their way into a well-defended convoy (the sort a Submarine would find a very high risk target) without too much trouble, particularly if the weather was advantageous. Although the Operation Rheinübung does provide an example of that gamble going very poorly (due to air power.)

Operating battleships without destroyer escorts isn't a smart move either.
Yes, but they're much more capable of handling themselves on their own than a carrier, although submarines do still present a significant threat.

And for a raider, having to operate with a shorter-legged escort is a massive liability from a logistical standpoint. As is the severe disadvantage smaller vessels have in rough weather, compared to a 20,000+ tonne vessel that can make >20kts in anything but Force 12 weather, and won't be put at risk if it gets caught in a Hurricane or Typhoon with no safe harbor available.
 
The argument around carriers is really an argument carrier aircraft, as said when a suite of aircraft like the Dauntless/Avenger, Val/Kate come along able to carry large torps and heavy bombs from a deck the BB looses all rationale.

They are after all individually more complex to build than a carrier, more vulnerable to weapon development (kinda stuck on the man armament) and can project power maybe 20 miles with air superiority vs 200 and contest air superiority.

There really is no point in building BB much after 41, finishing those under construction well it depends on who you are and how far along things are, using the ones have is another matter.

Arguing that a BB has value as a commerce raider or fire support ship is borderline daft. Any surface raider is detectable and you either steer the convoy away, scatter or launch the ready 5 depending on circumstance. or its raiding lone merchies in out of the way areas. The Threat of the German raiders was magnified because of their proximity to the Arctic convoys with very long dark periods and difficulty of operating aircraft in typical weather or operating from the French Coast although that was more fear than actual.

If you want 15 inch fire support you scrap the BB and mount the guns on a monitor - saves about 25% on crew numbers. Though why you cant manage with an 8 inch or 500lb bomb takes some explaining.
 
The argument around carriers is really an argument carrier aircraft, as said when a suite of aircraft like the Dauntless/Avenger, Val/Kate come along able to carry large torps and heavy bombs from a deck the BB looses all rationale.

They are after all individually more complex to build than a carrier, more vulnerable to weapon development (kinda stuck on the man armament) and can project power maybe 20 miles with air superiority vs 200 and contest air superiority.

There really is no point in building BB much after 41, finishing those under construction well it depends on who you are and how far along things are, using the ones have is another matter.

Arguing that a BB has value as a commerce raider or fire support ship is borderline daft. Any surface raider is detectable and you either steer the convoy away, scatter or launch the ready 5 depending on circumstance. or its raiding lone merchies in out of the way areas. The Threat of the German raiders was magnified because of their proximity to the Arctic convoys with very long dark periods and difficulty of operating aircraft in typical weather or operating from the French Coast although that was more fear than actual.

If you want 15 inch fire support you scrap the BB and mount the guns on a monitor - saves about 25% on crew numbers. Though why you cant manage with an 8 inch or 500lb bomb takes some explaining.
From hindsight yes you are right

From the point of a service with no hindsight trying to justify why it needs more money for more ships and that the air force doesn't need more money for more planes, well they don't have a neutral point of view

They have vested interests and want something, that may not be the most efficient, but real life does not always have the most efficient result occur

Politicians and inter-service budget battles determine what gets built, not practicality or efficiency
 
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its not hindsight

"The modern development of aircraft has demonstrated conclusively that the backbone of the Navy today is the aircraft carrier. The carrier, with destroyers cruiser and submarines grouped around it[,] is the spearhead of all modern naval task forces." Carl Vinson July 1940

The 1940 US build programme is 18 carriers, 2 Iowa 5 Montana and 6 Alaska and 15000 a/c

As opposed to the 36 act which was 4 south Dak, 2 Iowa and 2 CV with 2 more CV in 38.

The British laid down pre war the 5 KGV and Ark, 4x Illustrious, Indomitable, 2 Implacable and Unicorn.

Or roughly 1:1 CV:BB for the USN Pre war and 2:1 for the RN.

The USN position I think being coloured by the fact that the IJN ships were either best in class (Nagato's) or very recently modernised (Kongo's) and the then current US BB not capable of operating with carriers and potentially outgunned sship for ship by the IJN.

The cruiser programmes (and DD) dwarf BB production and all fleets post treaty were looking and rapid expansion of the cruiser force to modern standards.
 
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