No WW1 does nukes happen?

Okay what if WW1 didn't happen
(though several large conflicts do which leads to a tech rise that equals the change caused by WW1)
Do nukes happen?

So the idea is this=
When can a
German/GB alliance
And a
Franco/Russian alliance
and a
Isolationist USA

Realistically design nuclear weapons


I thought that nukes would become operational in about 1950ish rather than 1945
 

mowque

Banned
Regardless of everything else, the 50's aren't an unreasonable time to push atomic discoveries too. OTL was probably on the soon-ish side compared to others.

Edit: Assuming a post-1900 POD.
 
no WW1 means the science infrastructure in germany stays intact, so more development there. add scientist that were stuck with defence in that period.
plus no WW1 means no spanish flu, this 70-120M more people alive.
This all in all creates so much extra butterflies and extra opportunities that i think it is very well possible that some discoveries are done earlier than otl.
especially because the butteflies might mean someone is lucky enough to see something at the right moment and draw the right conclusions.

i agree that nukes in the late 30s are a possibility.
 
So would everyone agree with this

Germany/GB= 1936?
France/Russia= 1939
USA= 1943
Japan= included in GB/Ger program or don't seriously try to develop at all

Or alternatively

Germany/GB= 1938
France/Russia= 1940
USA= 1944
Japan= 1946
 

Deleted member 1487

So would everyone agree with this

Germany/GB= 1936?
France/Russia= 1939
USA= 1943
Japan= included in GB/Ger program or don't seriously try to develop at all

Or alternatively

Germany/GB= 1938
France/Russia= 1940
USA= 1944
Japan= 1946
Germany ~1936
GB ~1938-9
France~1938-9
Russia (depending on help from France) ~1940-50
Japan ~1950
US ~1940-5
 
plus no WW1 means no spanish flu, this 70-120M more people alive.

Maybe, maybe not here. It's lethality is due to the fact is was a atypical strain of avian flu. While the war and it's effects in Europe can be said as to what help kill people in those countries, it doesn't explain the deaths in those countries that weren't feeling the deprivations of the war, like Spain or the United States. Since there is a robust rail and ship transportation system and still very rudimentary communications available, the flu might spread just as fast as before. It's hard to say, but I wouldn't write it off totally.

Torqumada
 

Deleted member 1487

Maybe, maybe not here. It's lethality is due to the fact is was a atypical strain of avian flu. While the war and it's effects in Europe can be said as to what help kill people in those countries, it doesn't explain the deaths in those countries that weren't feeling the deprivations of the war, like Spain or the United States. Since there is a robust rail and ship transportation system and still very rudimentary communications available, the flu might spread just as fast as before. It's hard to say, but I wouldn't write it off totally.

Torqumada

From what I gathered, it gestated in military training camps that held millions of people suddenly and spread everywhere they went. Without all that barracks living I'm not sure it would spread as IOTL.
 
But since viruses mutate so quickly (and with unpredictably random base pair changes being partly responsible for those mutations), the appearance of the exact strain of avian flu responsible for the '19 epidemic might well be butterflied away by a pre 1914 POD, right?

edit: Also, I thought that malnutrition and starvation in European nations would've compromised immune systems across the board, leading to more OTL victims.
 

Deleted member 1487

But since viruses mutate so quickly (and with unpredictably random base pair changes being partly responsible for those mutations), the appearance of the exact strain of avian flu responsible for the '19 epidemic might well be butterflied away by a pre 1914 POD, right?

edit: Also, I thought that malnutrition and starvation in European nations would've compromised immune systems across the board, leading to more OTL victims.

Supposedly the virus used the immune system of the victims to kill them, so the younger and healthier people were more vulnerable to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic
Most victims were healthy young adults, in contrast to most influenza outbreaks, which predominantly affect juvenile, elderly, or weakened patients.

An unusual feature of this pandemic was that it mostly killed young adults, with 99% of pandemic influenza deaths occurring in people under 65, and more than half in young adults 20 to 40 years old.[48] This is noteworthy, since influenza is normally most deadly to weak individuals, such as infants (under age two), the very old (over age 70), and the immunocompromised. In 1918, older adults may have had partial protection caused by exposure to the previous Russian flu pandemic of 1889.[49] According to historian John M. Barry, the most vulnerable of all – "those most likely, of the most likely", to die – were pregnant women. He reported that in thirteen studies of hospitalized women in the pandemic, the death rate ranged from 23% to 71%. Of the pregnant women who survived childbirth, over one-quarter (26%) lost the child.[50]

Another oddity was that the outbreak was widespread in the summer and autumn (in the Northern Hemisphere); influenza is usually worse in winter.[51]

Modern analysis has shown the virus to be particularly deadly because it triggers a cytokine storm, which ravages the stronger immune system of young adults.[9]

The second wave of the 1918 pandemic was much deadlier than the first. The first wave had resembled typical flu epidemics; those most at risk were the sick and elderly, while younger, healthier people recovered easily. But in August, when the second wave began in France, Sierra Leone and the United States,[52] the virus had mutated to a much deadlier form. This has been attributed to the circumstances of the First World War.[53]


In civilian life, natural selection favours a mild strain. Those who get very ill stay home, and those mildly ill continue with their lives, preferentially spreading the mild strain. In the trenches, natural selection was reversed. Soldiers with a mild strain stayed where they were, while the severely ill were sent on crowded trains to crowded field hospitals, spreading the deadlier virus. The second wave began and the flu quickly spread around the world again.[54]

It was the same flu in that most of those who recovered from first-wave infections were immune, but it was now far more deadly; the most vulnerable people were those like the soldiers in the trenches—young, otherwise-healthy adults.[55] Consequently, during modern pandemics health officials pay attention when the virus reaches places with social upheaval (looking for deadlier strains of the virus).[54]

This effect was most dramatically illustrated in Copenhagen, which escaped with a combined mortality rate of just 0.29% (0.02% in the first wave and 0.27% in the second wave) because of exposure to the less-lethal first wave.[56]
 

BlondieBC

Banned
It could be as early as the late 1920's and it could be as late as the late 1930's. The USA built a crash program in 2.5 years. After the basic physics are worked out, a 5-8 year weapons development program is about the right amount of time. While people talk about the cost of the A-bomb project, it was largely due to it being a crash program. We built cities just to be level a few years later. I think the plutonium cycle is more likely than the uranium cycle. So we get to the question of when the major weaponization program is authorized. In 1938 we have the fission discovery IOTL. So I don't see any possible way much past the late 1940's, but this low probability event. In 1933 or so, Plutonium is discovered in published paper but not followed up. Without the chaos of WW1, you would have follow up studies that confirm. IMO, 1935 is the last possible realistic date to begin the "Berlin Project", and it would be the Germans who lead. So 1942-1945 is latest time frame with other great powers to follow over the next decade. Too much of the basic research would be public and published for one power only to launch the program.

Now lets take the lost time of WW1 which setback many technologies more than a decade. Germany was the leader in physics, and hard hit. IMO, the most likely time to discover plutonium is the early to mid 1920's, call it 1922 to 1926, so we get a bomb in the early 1930's. It is important to remember that the basic byproducts of fission were worth 10,000's of times more valuable than gold. It was projected that the radium mines would be worth more than all the gold mines in the world. Radium was mined out of uranium ore. The initial funding will be based on obtaining medical isotopes combined with people trying to get rich quick. No way to stop this one. We nerfed the bomb development as much as possible IOTL.

Now if everything lines up just right, you could get plutonium discovered in 1919 or so. But this again is not terribly likely. The only missing precurser technology in 1913 is the spectrometer. It was found in 1918 IOTL. And it also depends on how rapidly it is funded for the weaponization. You could see a Manhattan type funding ITTL, but it is unlikely to be that high. The British, USA, and Germany could certainly afford to fund at this level, it is just unlikely.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Supposedly the virus used the immune system of the victims to kill them, so the younger and healthier people were more vulnerable to it.

Yeah, that would've meant it might've actually been about as deadly, or worse in some urban areas.

As for the question in the OP, I could see it being discovered earlier with more pure science type research, or a bit later if funding's a bit harder to come by. It might even be a development of Commercial nuclear power ITTL, since the need for a "superbomb" might not be evident enough for anyone to really put any effort into developing them. But Fission power would be very attractive off the bat.

As for the order in acquisition, I could see it being something like Germany, then the UK, followed by France, Japan, Russia and then the US, all in roughly that order.
The Japanese are likely the ones who would benefit the most to that. A few nuclear shells would put their Battle-line on par with the US Pacific fleet in short order, and might allow them a decisive victory at sea in the inevitable-ish Pacific War, while everyone else might be to concerned with maintaining the balance of power.

That said, after the invention of Suitable Bombers, Cruise Missiles and Ballistic Missiles, any ephemeral advantage gained by such turns to crap.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
As for the question in the OP, I could see it being discovered earlier with more pure science type research, or a bit later if funding's a bit harder to come by. It might even be a development of Commercial nuclear power ITTL, since the need for a "superbomb" might not be evident enough for anyone to really put any effort into developing them. But Fission power would be very attractive off the bat.

Even with initial failure to fund the weapons, I have trouble seeing the development of commercial electricity reactors before bombs. The key is the medical isotopes. As soon as the second lab confirms plutonium and its decay products, then people are going to realize the long desired alchemist dream. Except for gold, they will be producing medical isotopes. So lets assume not military interests and miscalculations showing bombs are impossible. These results will to into public papers. The next logical step is to build a reactor to produce these isotopes, probably a basic plutonium pile setup. The logical thing will be to patent the reactor, and the publish papers. One has to get the energy calculations correct due to practical work. Every military in the world will see these results and understand it can make a hugely powerful bomb. I don't see how you avoid it being funded. And in many ways once the physics is worked out, building a bomb program is easier than developing the first commercial nuclear reactor.
 
You know, France was pretty in advance in term of atomic research OTL until WW2. And without WW1 the better part of France industrial potentioal isn't ruined. And they could still want Alsace back, as a form of motivation to search new weapons.
 
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