No Viking Age?

The idea was to have the Wends and Balts make them focus on the Baltic... ;)
I understood. Just that the Vikings already focused on Wends OTL, and the first victims were the Adobrites, so I suppose you wanted to make them MORE focused on Wendia and Baltic (maybe because more strong or lasting carolingian world) than OTL.

I'm at a loss but Bretons???

The Pre-Carolingian Brittany is a chaotic mess, not even regulated by a local Church as in Ireland.

They were far too marginal : both vassalized by Carolingians thanks to Nominoë and in fact, the real independence of the "Kingdom of Brittany" (considered more or less as part of the carolingian world) is directly issued from the alliance with danish raiders or their fight against them when Franks can't hold the flow.
 
I understood. Just that the Vikings already focused on Wends OTL, and the first victims were the Adobrites, so I suppose you wanted to make them MORE focused on Wendia and Baltic (maybe because more strong or lasting carolingian world) than OTL.

Then you also know I wasn't aiming at you. :)

Actually having the Vikings engaged somewhere else - they might have been Baltic trade was no small thing as shown by hoards of arab coins etc. found in Scandinavia - open up the North Sea for takers and leaves the British Isles to their own mess.
Read somewhere that Carolingian Empire had some political upper hand over the Heptarchy but thats as far as I goes. Though seems to me neither had designs on navies and other seafaring untill forced by the Vikings.


The Pre-Carolingian Brittany is a chaotic mess, not even regulated by a local Church as in Ireland.

They were far too marginal : both vassalized by Carolingians thanks to Nominoë and in fact, the real independence of the "Kingdom of Brittany" (considered more or less as part of the carolingian world) is directly issued from the alliance with danish raiders or their fight against them when Franks can't hold the flow.

I surely didn't know how chaotic; thanks.
 
A radically different Eastern Europe?

Weren't the Kievan Rus' heavily reliant on its trade routes from Constantinople to the Scandinavian countries? Also wasn't much of Rus' royalty descendant from Vikings?
 
Read somewhere that Carolingian Empire had some political upper hand over the Heptarchy but thats as far as I goes. Though seems to me neither had designs on navies and other seafaring untill forced by the Vikings.

I personally never heard about a political upper hand on Anglo-Saxons kingdoms, contrary of -by exemple- Asturias. Do you remember on which context it was?

You have letters and exchanges between Offa and Charlemagne, but currently reading "Dark Age Economics" from Richard Hodges, it seems that it was more a tensed situation than the one you depict.

I don't want to be rude regarding the seafare, but I'm pretty sure that when the germanic peoples settled Brittania, they didn't swim from Germania.

More seriously, don't forget that Frisian were present in South-East england, forming a trading communauty in London. And the Frisian had an acknowledged seafare tradition as the Saxons (apparently a ship found in Sutton Hoe have a length of 27m). Admittedly he couldn't have supported a mast but you had already the creation of such navies from the saxon tradition (both continental and insular) in England around the IXth century, giving the priority to tonnage against rowers.

I surely didn't know how chaotic; thanks.
I should have used "troubled" instead of chaotic, though. It was not a perpetual civil war, just a patchwork of lordship/Chiefdoms more or less reunited by carolingians (and that backfired ultimatly)

Weren't the Kievan Rus' heavily reliant on its trade routes from Constantinople to the Scandinavian countries?
Yes, but less than admittedly tought. Russia had its own ressources, such as furs, amber and slaves that could have been send to Byzantium even without the creation of the road "From Varagians to Greeks".

On my opinion, Kievan Rus' was more dependent from his exports than import from Constantinople, even if the trade to Scandinavia formed a good part of its trade.

Also wasn't much of Rus' royalty descendant from Vikings?
That's a bit far more complicated : Scandinavian nobles and traders mixed themselves with their slavic counterparts. Rus' royalty is as well issued from Vikings than Slavic origin and it's unlikely that without Vikings at all (that is not the OP as developped, but let's go with this) a Rus' equivalent wouldn't have existed in a slavic base.
 
I personally never heard about a political upper hand on Anglo-Saxons kingdoms, contrary of -by exemple- Asturias. Do you remember on which context it was?

Regarding Charlemagne's scholar Alcuin of York; author mentioning the British kingdoms being subordinated to Charlemagne. Don't the remember the title though.

You have letters and exchanges between Offa and Charlemagne, but currently reading "Dark Age Economics" from Richard Hodges, it seems that it was more a tensed situation than the one you depict.

Interesting.


I don't want to be rude regarding the seafare, but I'm pretty sure that when the germanic peoples settled Brittania, they didn't swim from Germania.

No I didn't expect them to walk to Britain but at this time the Saxons or whoever wouldn't to my knowledge be at the fore of seafaring.


More seriously, don't forget that Frisian were present in South-East england, forming a trading communauty in London.

Aware of that.


And the Frisian had an acknowledged seafare tradition as the Saxons (apparently a ship found in Sutton Hoe have a length of 27m). Admittedly he couldn't have supported a mast but you had already the creation of such navies from the saxon tradition (both continental and insular) in England around the IXth century, giving the priority to tonnage against rowers.

And the artwork within the grave suggested Swedish/Uppsala origin/inspiration.
The same kind of ship/boat is known from Danish sites.


I should have used "troubled" instead of chaotic, though. It was not a perpetual civil war, just a patchwork of lordship/Chiefdoms more or less reunited by carolingians (and that backfired ultimatly)

Ah.


That's a bit far more complicated : Scandinavian nobles and traders mixed themselves with their slavic counterparts. Rus' royalty is as well issued from Vikings than Slavic origin and it's unlikely that without Vikings at all (that is not the OP as developped, but let's go with this) a Rus' equivalent wouldn't have existed in a slavic base.

Except when you try to cross swords with Russians who firmly believe that the Rus originated in Russia.
 
Except when you try to cross swords with Russians who firmly believe that the Rus originated in Russia.
That's not entirely correct.
Actually this statement is wrong.
The 'Russians' do not "firmly believe that the Rus originated in Russia".
The majority of the Russians agree that "Scandinavian nobles and traders mixed themselves with their slavic counterparts. Rus' royalty is as well issued from Vikings than Slavic origin... and so on".

It is a common knowledge even among the 'ordinary' folk:

for instance if nowadays there is some mess in the firm/organization and there is a hope that some top manager from outside can do some useful crisis management the Russians say:
- Let's call to a 'Varangian' for help!
And every Russian understands the meaning of this old saying (no doubt referring to the ancient legend about Slavs calling 'Varangian Rus' for help "as crisis managers":D

Of course there are some Russian ultra-patriots who thinks that this historical fact somehow humiliates them.
As for me - I do not.
On the contrary i think this is funny.
My uncle worked as a 'master' (a captain of a sea ship) and him being Russian he looked 100% Norwegian or a Swede with his red beard, a smoking pipe etc. When being abroad he was always mistakingly identified by them as their own.

My brother looks absolutely 'Norman' as well. Even without beard and smoking pipe :D It is about genotype mostly, looking alike. The same mistaken identity is usual with him:) The Finns or other Scandinavians may start speaking to him in their language in the street.
:) I went after our father, I am more 'Russian'-looking.
 
@Russian:
You read some here some there; actually Danish scholars reject the Rus being of Danish descend (which a lot of Danes would like; Valdemar 1 was born in Russia and there were traditionally strong ties) because of lack of evidence - not the travelling in Russia etc.

Tradition is one thing - evidence another. :)
 
Regarding Charlemagne's scholar Alcuin of York; author mentioning the British kingdoms being subordinated to Charlemagne. Don't the remember the title though.
The problem is Alcuin try to improve Carolingian world's prestige. By exemple, the Kingdom of Asturias was considered by carolingian scholars as vassal of Charlemagne even if the Frankish couldn't care less of some Christians in mountains of Spain.

And in Anglo-Sawons kingdoms, it's even worse : Charlemagne basically "borrow" their scholars and don't care too much about how anglo-saxons nobles feel about it by exemple.

No I didn't expect them to walk to Britain but at this time the Saxons or whoever wouldn't to my knowledge be at the fore of seafaring.
They had a far more important seafaring culture than you tought, actually and have a close level with Frisians (that were really close of them, bith geographically and culturally).

Admittedly, until the VIII century, they used coastal boats (as everyone else) as it was enough for their needs.

And the artwork within the grave suggested Swedish/Uppsala origin/inspiration.
The same kind of ship/boat is known from Danish sites.
I would be curious to know how you can make the distinction, from a artwork that's not really a blueprint, between two western germanic seafaring traditions. Seriously, you had a common seafaring culture in North Sea with the impossibility to know who's te first between Frisians, Saxons, Jutes or even coastal Franks invented this or this feature.

But let's admit it was a "non Anglo-Sawon" design, as far I don't see how it would be proovable now. It would be showing that Anglo-Saxons managed to make at well non-coastal ships of their own, and they had a seafare tradition.
 
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