No V Weapons and more Nazi jets

Derek Jackson

Could the forces of evil have prolonged WW2 in Europe if they had NOT put the rescources they used in OTL into terror weapons V1s, V2s and (I believe bombed by Britain and never operational) V3 a sort of super gun.

Suppose instead the effort had been put into achieving Air Superiority- at least in the day time- with many more jet fighters.


(I assume that the evenatual outcome of the War would not be changed. I am not certain whether the ME 262 was better than the Gloster Meteor but I am sure that the UK and the US could and would have outproduced the Nazis to gain such a numerical superiority that Europe would eventually have been freed from Hitler or whoever led the Nazis.)
 

The Dean

The Meteor F3 production version was marginally faster than the Me262 and had a higher service ceiling. It was regarded in comparison to be superior to the Hawker Tempest, probably the nadir of piston engined fighters, in every respect.

The Meteor was probably not as agile as the Me but it proved itself as a sturdy dogfighter in it's later career. It's engines however were much more reliable and it had a larger radius of operation.

There were handling issues that were not resolved until the F8 entered service. This model however engaged in dogfights during the Korean war against Mig 15s. The Australian pilots could not outfly the Migs but neither were they shot from the sky. Several Migs were destroyed and many damaged. Only a few Meteors were lost in air to air combat.
 

torque7844

It all depends on whether you can get Hitler to okay mass production of the ME-262 earlier in the war AND get him to use it as a fighter (the way it was intended) rather than a bomber.

Part of the problem with the 262 was that Hitler envisioned a jet bomber, and so the scientists wasted valuable time and resources trying to convert it into something it just wasn't meant to be.

If Germany had been able to field a large force of 262s for air defense earlier on, they could've inflicted massive casualties on the Allied bomber forces (the few battles where they WERE employed their kill ratio against the bombers was very impressive).

Provided all those criteria are met, sure the Germans can prolong the war. From there it's a question of how long they can maintain air superiority but eventually all those factories in the US, completely protected from attack other than some form of sabotage, are going to outproduce Germany.
 

The Dean

Once the 262 appeared in numbers the US would have cranked up production of the F-80 and even the UK were beyond the reach of significant German attack and aircraft production would have been switched to Meteor F3s.

This would have prolonged the end of hostilities but would undoubtedly accelerate the development of further jet designs.
 

The Dean

PMN1 said:
Can you improve the lifetime of the engines at the same time?
​
Click to expand...

The German engines were axial flow and they didn't know they needed higher melting point alloys until the turbine blades started failing. This would have happened to whoever started making axial flow engines. Whittle's centrifugal engines could function perfectly well with existing alloys indeed there are preserved aircraft flying with their original engines, a testament to their designer.
 

adam888

No, they needed the bomb to prolong or win the war in Europe.

I can't see how the Germans could have produced sufficient
numbers of Jets in 1944 to have defeated the enormous
numbers of conventional fighters the Allies had at their
disposal. What the Germans needed were a crash program
to produce the type 21 submarines in 1943-44.
 

Landshark

The Dean said:
The Meteor F3 production version was marginally faster than the Me262 and had a higher service ceiling. It was regarded in comparison to be superior to the Hawker Tempest, probably the nadir of piston engined fighters, in every respect.
Click to expand...

Nadir?
...............
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Depends on when they made them. IIRC Heinkel's first jets flew in 1939. What if they'd done it from the beginnng and leapfrogged prop driven planes entirely?

'course that would simply accelerate everyone else's jet programs and drain more German resources earlier, the war might be over even sooner.
 

PMN1

The Dean said:
The German engines were axial flow and they didn't know they needed higher melting point alloys until the turbine blades started failing. This would have happened to whoever started making axial flow engines. Whittle's centrifugal engines could function perfectly well with existing alloys indeed there are preserved aircraft flying with their original engines, a testament to their designer.
Click to expand...

Interesting site I found a few months ago

http://www.frankwhittle.co.uk/centrifugal_or_axial.htm
 

The Dean

NapoleonXIV said:
Depends on when they made them. IIRC Heinkel's first jets flew in 1939. What if they'd done it from the beginnng and leapfrogged prop driven planes entirely?

'course that would simply accelerate everyone else's jet programs and drain more German resources earlier, the war might be over even sooner.
Click to expand...

That's true, the Gloster Meteor was at best a barely adequate design. The air ministry were not interested in Whittle's jets and they had a low priority. All of the best designers and engineers were pushing the envelope of piston engined aircraft.

Had the threat of German jet aircraft emerged sooner then a lot of time and resources would not have gone into such projects as the 24 cylinder engines from Rolls Royce and Napiers. Whittle's engines developed and the designers put to work on jet propelled machines.
 

aktarian

First there is a question of allocating resources. 1RM spent on v-weapons translates to how man RMs in jet field? It's not like saying Panthers instead of PZ IVs.

Then there is a question of Me-262's vulnerabilities, e.g. during landings. If they start appearing in large numbers then Wallies increase patrols over airfields where they operate catching them when vulnerable.
 

orion900

A huge number of B-17's and B-24 bomber would have been shot down, by German Fighters, if the Germany had started production of Me 262 fighter version (not the bomber version) in early 1943. US and British war planners didn't recognized the threat of Jet fighters until after the war, more resources would have been needed to start a major production run of Allied Jet Fighter, and by then there would be no day light bombing of Germany. Also if production reforms had been done with the new production of the Jet Me 262 and advance jet fighter design, then you could see the lost of Air Control over battlefields in France in 1944.


Would need more fighters and personal in 1943, with major changes in production and fuel, and command and control, with increase Jet production. Still it could have been done, just something else besides the Terror Weapons, would have to be stopped, maybe other Aircraft Production and greater reorganization of staff and personal.


Orion
 

Max Sinister

Banned
Do you think it would've made a big difference? The V weapons had more psychological value, both for nazis and allied civilians.
 

orion900

Max Sinister said:
Do you think it would've made a big difference? The V weapons had more psychological value, both for nazis and allied civilians.
Click to expand...

From Orion

You are right V weapon did have more of psychological value, and they did tie up alot of British and American AirForces, but they didn't really have any high long term value. The destroying of huge numbers of American Daylight bombers, would have major long term military value. The Question is with over 300 Me 262 in the Air over Germany in 1943, make a different in the Air War? How would the Americans and British reacted against this threat, what about D-Day invasion of France, with the lost of bomber protection, there would still be some fighter cover, P-51 and P-48 would be fighting an air battle over the battlefields of France, how would the Me 262 handle the numbers of Tranditional fighters vs the smaller numbers of Jets.


Thanks


Orion
 

Riain

Banned
The Me 262 would have real problems dealing with the B29. It flew 50% higer and faster than the B17/24 and it's 20mm tail gun outranged the 262's 30mms. Also later Mustang versions were very fast, and could always be fitted with the Griffon if the war looked like dragging on to 1946.___________ BTW, Hitler's 'bomber' edict for the 262 delayed the fighter version by a week at most, the real delay was the non-availability of engines.
 
Michel Van

Michel Van

the V Wapons were not Effective

As many as 20,000 slave laborers died constructing V-2s compared to the 7,000 military personnel and civilians that died from the V-2s use in combat!
for a cost at least $ 2 billion in 1944 dollars !
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v2.htm

the V-1
had the problem of Guidance, it fly strate on until counter get to Zero they engine off and V-1 falls like bomb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb#Guidance_system
the SS found a solution to that Problem
fi103riv.jpg

a Manned V-1 :eek:

with out V-2 and V-3 http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v3.htm
we have over $ 2 billion (in 1944 dollars ) for Jet Fighter

like Me262-A1aU4
800px-Me262-A1aU4_2.jpg

Me 262 A-1a/U4 with 50 mm cannon (experimental version) with American markings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262

or this
ME-262LorinMain.jpg

Lorin desgin used two Sänger Ramjet engine on top of BMW Jumbo 004 B engine.

and as Wapon for Me262 4 x ruhrstahl x-4 (air-to-air wire-guided missile)
rx1.jpg

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html

or the Henschel HS 298 missile
hs293-2.jpg

Radio control or TV guided! Missile
carried by the Me262 A-2a/U2 two men bomber
p1.jpg
 

grdja83

I know the board is called Alternate history. But since this isnt ASB, could we please keep low on napkinwaffe.
 
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